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Coast and peaks

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45039

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Hi all,
I have got a 4 in 8 days coast and peaks rover my station is sheffield.
My question is can i use it on the norwich-liverpool service from sheffield as on the NREA site east midlands trains logo is not shown but also does not come up with the restriction ?.
 
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glynn80

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It is valid.

Err, no it isn't, EMT is not listed as one of the TOCs that participate within the Coast & Peaks rover produce.

FRPP said:
Validity

On trains timed to depart from 0845 Mondays to Fridays, anytime weekends and Bank Holidays.

Valid on the services of the following Operators:

· Arriva Trains Wales

· CrossCountry

· First TransPennine Express

· London Midland

· Merseyrail

· Northern

· Virgin Trains
 

glynn80

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Regardless of what is printed on the map, officially the ticket is only valid on the participating TOCs that operate within the area.

EMT will get no revenue from the sale of this rover and justifiably will be able to refuse to accept them.
 
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charley_17/7

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AFAIK they ARE valid on ALL TOC services in the Coast & Peaks Rover area, except for Wrexham & Shropshire.

It appears that ATOC, when updating the rovers page with new logos/names, after the end of Central Trains, may not have proof read the content, before uploading it. For a period of time, the old names were shown, with the TOC logos missing, then hastily revised.
 

glynn80

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AFAIK they ARE valid on ALL TOC services in the Coast & Peaks Rover area, except for Wrexham & Shropshire.

It appears that ATOC, when updating the rovers page with new logos/names, after the end of Central Trains, may not have proof read the content, before uploading it. For a period of time, the old names were shown, with the TOC logos missing, then hastily revised.

No, I quoted from the FRPP which is updated weekly not the National Rail Rovers & Rangers section of the website, which as you state is not fit for purpose. EMT are listed under numerous other Rover products within the FRPP, which were previously under the remit of Central Trains and thus I very much doubt it is a proof read error with the text, more likely an out of date map not taking into account EMT's non-participation.

I'll restate that, as EMT receive no revenue from the sale of Coast & Peaks Rovers, they are well within their right to refuse to accept them on their services.
 
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charley_17/7

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I agree that is what 'The Manual' states, but personally I reckon it is wrong. Otherwise the marketing information leaflets published by Northern have been wrong for the past 2 years?

I discovered, this week, that it also appears that EMT are setting/pricing fares on the Mid-Cheshire Line, for fares between the Northwich Group and Liverpool Group, with Groupsave fares even listed. Either duff information has been upfed, or the joy of franchise remapping meant that Central set the Northwich (Harford) - Liverpool fare (services were run by FNW, then remapped to Central, IIRC), perhaps overlooked. Perhaps its the same logic with EMT running Kidsgrove station.
 

glynn80

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I agree that is what 'The Manual' states, but personally I reckon it is wrong. Otherwise the marketing information leaflets published by Northern have been wrong for the past 2 years?

On what basis do you have to substantiate claims the FRPP is "wrong". This is not a rover that was introduced by Northern such as the many others located in the North West, this rover has been available to customers since British Rail days. As such, Northern are not the arbiters of validity of this ticket, ATOC are.
 

yorkie

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It would be illegal for them to say you can go to places like Matlock and then say "oh sorry you can't because the only trains that run there are run by a company that we've not listed you can use" I think the media would slaughter them if they tried that on!

NCoC says:

"B. VALIDITY OF TICKETSi
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."
 

eos

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The West Midlands Day Ranger isn't valid on Virgin Trains services, but I don't remember seeing that on the last ticket I bought.. ' Valid as advertised' was quoted.
 

yorkie

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The West Midlands Day Ranger isn't valid on Virgin Trains services, but I don't remember seeing that on the last ticket I bought..
But this has cropped up in several threads previously and we asked if anyone had actually been charged a fare on Virgin Trains on such a ticket in the ranger area, and no-one replied to say they had, despite plenty of people using them on Virgin. The general advice is not to ask the TM "is this valid on Virgin" but to simply show the ranger to the TM and say "am I aright to <insert station name>?" I've not heard of anyone be refused asking that.

I don't think "some website/secret manual says you can't use it on Virgin" suffices, there should be something on the ticket to say it isn't valid on a certain TOC.
 

tony_mac

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The Ffestiniog Round Robin is shown as only valid on Arriva Trains Wales; they have acknowledged that this isn't correct, but the National Rail website hasn't changed.

On what basis do you have to substantiate claims the FRPP is "wrong"?
Either the FRPP is wrong or the advertising of the ticket is wrong. But the ticket has to be valid 'as advertised', and it is advertised as being valid on services that only EMT provide.

EMT don't really have any option but to accept it, although they could waste money losing a court case if they chose to.
The private arrangements between EMT and whoever is responsible for the ticket is none of the passenger's business.
 

dan_atki

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Regardless of what is printed on the map, officially the ticket is only valid on the participating TOCs that operate within the area.

A can of worms is opened, therefore, when the Northern website (through the aforementioned link) state that their rovers are valid on all companies' services in the area with the exception of Grand Central, Hull Trains, and Wrexham & Shropshire.

A similar situation occurred with the East Midlands Day Ranger when London Midland was unintentionally missed off the list so Nuneaton-Tamworth was impossible. This has since been rectified.

I'm also not sure how much of a role ATOC have with rovers and rangers (other than the All Line). FGW are in charge (as far as I'm aware) of promoting and setting the fare for all the rovers/rangers mentioned on their rover page. Indeed, there are printed leaflets too... produced by FGW.
 

45039

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hi all
the question i asked yesterday has been answered.
I caught the 0620 of SHF to Liverpool lime street this morning and my ticket was accepted.
I asked the guard and she said its northern what has not updated the leaflet yet as like someone said earlier the rover is from british rail days so the rules are still the same as then.
 

glynn80

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Either the FRPP is wrong or the advertising of the ticket is wrong. But the ticket has to be valid 'as advertised', and it is advertised as being valid on services that only EMT provide.

EMT don't really have any option but to accept it, although they could waste money losing a court case if they chose to.
The private arrangements between EMT and whoever is responsible for the ticket is none of the passenger's business.

But the ticket is NOT advertised as being valid on all lines listed on the map. It clearly states within both the FRPP and on the National Rail website (the latter of which is updated weekly) that the ticket is only "Valid on the services of the following Operators".

I do agree the map is slightly misleading and could lead to questions of why are the lines such as Matlock even listed on the map in the first place. But unfortunately the wording is very clear about what is and what is not valid with this particular ticket. Members of this forum seem to be viewing the map as the only condition related to the ticket without taking into consideration the accompanying wording.
dan_atki said:
A can of worms is opened, therefore, when the Northern website (through the aforementioned link) state that their rovers are valid on all companies' services in the area with the exception of Grand Central, Hull Trains, and Wrexham & Shropshire.

But the C&P Rover is not a Northern's product. They did not implement the fare and therefore have no responsibility for this fare. They can not dictate the terms of the rover, this is an ATOC function.

Even if we move into the terms of hypotheticals and this product was not under ATOC remit, why should Northern even be thought of as the lead operator of the product anyway, ATW run services over the rover's area just as heavily as Northern do.

dan_atki said:
I'm also not sure how much of a role ATOC have with rovers and rangers (other than the All Line). FGW are in charge (as far as I'm aware) of promoting and setting the fare for all the rovers/rangers mentioned on their rover page. Indeed, there are printed leaflets too... produced by FGW.

As far as I am aware ATOC are responsible for all multi-operator 'Regional' Rail Rovers ( ones that offer travel for a number of consecutive days within a specific geographic area) and all 'Flexi' Rail Rovers (ones that offer travel for a set number of days within a set period (i.e. 3 in 7 days) within a specific geographic area).

Individual operators however seem to be able to alter the validity on their particular services of any Rover they have agreed to accept, this has been seen in a few past Newsrail Express bulletins.

I have no specific information on Rangers and thus cannot comment on the pricing and restrictions responsibilities for these products.
 

theblackwatch

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If it publically advertised as such as being valid (which it clearly is from the Northern link), then EMT would have no choice but to accept the ticket - from a legal point of view, I can't see any court agreeing that it is not valid given the advertising literature states it is. If this literature is incorrect, that is a matter for EMT, Northern (and perhaps ATOC) to resolve, and isn't really anything to do with the customer who is using a ticket as advertised in good faith.
 

John @ home

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But the ticket is NOT advertised as being valid on all lines listed on the map.

Yes, it is. I have just read all 12 pages of the Northern Rail leaflet "Explore the North of England... with a Rail Rover ticket" most carefully. The printed leaflet and the web version both carry the reference "Rail Rover/0109/Solar/60k". The only reference to validity being limited by train company is:

Explore the North of England... with a Rail Rover ticket said:
The following exceptions apply:
North Country and North West Rovers are valid on the Cumbrian Coast line (Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle via Whitehaven) at any time.
North West Rovers are valid from Lockerbie to Carlisle at any time.
You can use your Rail Rover tickets on all train companies’ services shown on the maps in this leaflet except for Grand Central, Hull Trains and Wrexham & Shropshire railway.

The leaflet is at http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/special_offers/railrovers_2009.pdf

glynn80, please read the leaflet and then say whether you think a Coast & Peaks Rover is valid between Derby and Matlock.

John
 

glynn80

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If it publically advertised as such as being valid (which it clearly is from the Northern link), then EMT would have no choice but to accept the ticket - from a legal point of view, I can't see any court agreeing that it is not valid given the advertising literature states it is. If this literature is incorrect, that is a matter for EMT, Northern (and perhaps ATOC) to resolve, and isn't really anything to do with the customer who is using a ticket as advertised in good faith.

Perhaps if you were to purchase the ticket from a Northern ticket office or from a Northern member of staff, this would stand you in good stead, if you wished to pursue the issue legally. But Northern are not the official source of information for any other TOC, this falls under the TOCs own websites or collectively under National Rail. Furthermore Northern are in no position to dictate to other TOCs the validity of Rover fares on their services and are have no authority to force EMT to accept the Rover because of a mistake they may have made.

It of course could have been an oversight on the part of National Rail staff and the RSP Staff who administrate the FRPP and if so, ATOC are contactable to resolve the issue, but this seems highly improbable to me when both sets of websites with two different sets of staff working on them, are stating the exact same points

Yes, it is. I have just read all 12 pages of the Northern Rail leaflet "Explore the North of England... with a Rail Rover ticket" most carefully. The printed leaflet and the web version both carry the reference "Rail Rover/0109/Solar/60k". The only reference to validity being limited by train company is:

Again I will state, Northern are NOT the official source of information for any TOC other than themselves. They have no authority to force TOCs to accept Rover tickets they have misadvertised. I would agree wholeheartedly if you were linking to an EMT site but linking to Northern's site has no relevance to EMT validity, when the official information source is National Rail for passengers and the FRPP for staff (both of which state the ticket is not valid on EMT).
 

theblackwatch

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Perhaps if you were to purchase the ticket from a Northern ticket office or from a Northern member of staff, this would stand you in good stead, if you wished to pursue the issue legally.

You are confused here, it would be EMT pursueing it legally, rather than the passenger.
 

glynn80

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You are confused here, it would be EMT pursueing it legally, rather than the passenger.

No I wasn't confused at all, I was referring to if EMT refused to accept the C&P Rover and then charged the passenger for a new ticket that was actually valid on their services. The passenger would then be able to return to Northern and claim that they were missold the C&P Rover ticket in question and request Northern to reimburse them the cost of the new ticket they were required to purchase.
 

John @ home

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No I wasn't confused at all, I was referring to if EMT refused to accept the C&P Rover and then charged the passenger for a new ticket that was actually valid on their services. The passenger would then be able to return to Northern and claim that they were missold the C&P Rover ticket in question and request Northern to reimburse them the cost of the new ticket they were required to purchase.

My view is that this is giving far too much importance to internal railway documents not available to the general public. The only printed document available to the public appears to be the Northern Rail leaflet. If there is a contradiction between that and a statement on the National Rail web site, then that contradiction will be resolved in favour of the passenger.

There is no possibility that a passenger with a Coast & Peaks Rover and the leaflet "Explore the North of England... with a Rail Rover ticket" could be charged by EMT for travelling between Derby and Matlock.

Perhaps this is the same trap that the WSMR MD fell into recently in the "route Birmingham" debate: not looking at the world from the passenger's perspective when railway documentation is complex and inconsistent.

John
 

glynn80

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My view is that this is giving far too much importance to internal railway documents not available to the general public. The only printed document available to the public appears to be the Northern Rail leaflet. If there is a contradiction between that and a statement on the National Rail web site, then that contradiction will be resolved in favour of the passenger.

OK if you don't think the FRPP is a document worthy of importance, the National Rail site (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/prc43aadc35ce7410164353812d29a02/details.html) states exactly the same with regard to the operators the ticket is valid on.

National Rail said:
Train Companies:

Arriva Trains Wales, London Midland, Merseyrail, Northern Rail, First TransPennine Express, Virgin Trains, CrossCountry
I also think you yourself, are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, you are placing far too much importance on an unofficial document Northern have knocked up, without paying attention to any of the official information on the National Rail website.

There is no possibility that a passenger with a Coast & Peaks Rover and the leaflet "Explore the North of England... with a Rail Rover ticket" could be charged by EMT for travelling between Derby and Matlock.

Well as practically all guards just accept Rover tickets regardless of their validity anyway, I agree this is very unlikely to become a widescale issue, however when posting on this forum I think it best to give the official stance and people can make their own minds up on whether they wish to risk using the ticket invalidly.

Perhaps this is the same trap that the WSMR MD fell into recently in the "route Birmingham" debate: not looking at the world from the passenger's perspective when railway documentation is complex and inconsistent.

The "Route Birmingham" scenario has no relevance in this debate. The situation there, was one where the official railway documentation (in this case the National Routeing Guide) was stating the ticket was valid but the producer of the official railway manuals (RSP) were informing the TOC the ticket was invalid. The C&P Rover scenario is one where the official railway documentation (in this case the FRPP and National Rail website) are stating the ticket is invalid on EMT but another TOC (no relation to EMT) is unofficially claiming on their site, through a sweeping statement, that the ticket is valid on EMT services.
 
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metrocammel

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I also think you yourself, are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, you are placing far too much importance on an unofficial document Northern have knocked up, without paying attention to any of the official information on the National Rail website.

An 'official' document on the NR website that is totally contradicted by the map directly linked from it.....

From a 'Joe Public' point of view, they would be perfectly in the right to use this rover on EMT services to Matlock. The leaflet issued by Northern may have been 'knocked together', but that does not explain the fact it is shown on the National Rail website's map.

If this is a mistake by a particular TOC, I find it impossible how the passenger could be penalised for travelling on a route that 'public' literature issued by a TOC claims is valid- surely it should be a matter between the TOCs in question.
 

OwlMan

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It is not only advertised by Northern Trains.
On the National Rail website is is stated (my highlight)
Validity
Applies
From: 02/01/2006 Until: Until further notice
Times
Not specified
Details
Travel any 4 days in 8. After 08.45 Monday - Friday. Any train Weekends and Bank Holidays.
Only valid within the area shown on the map.

It makes no mention of which operators are allowed to be used.
AS it is advertised as valid within the area shown on the map on the National Rail website I assume it is valid - especially as the website says it is the definitive source of information:

National Rail Enquiries (NRE) is the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland. NRE is part of the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC), which is responsible for providing business services to the Train Operating Companies.

Peter
 

nedchester

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No I wasn't confused at all, I was referring to if EMT refused to accept the C&P Rover and then charged the passenger for a new ticket that was actually valid on their services. The passenger would then be able to return to Northern and claim that they were missold the C&P Rover ticket in question and request Northern to reimburse them the cost of the new ticket they were required to purchase.

I guard couldn't LEGALLY try to charge an extra a passenger for travelling between Stoke on Trent and Matlock. The leaflet says it is valid and therefore it is valid.It doesn't matter one bit whether Northern or whoever issue the leaflet. It say so on a publicly available publication and therefore the ticket is valid. The passenger would be in their rights to refuse to pay for any excess. Any retail anomalies like this always find in favour of the customer.

I suspect what has happened here is that when EMT/LMT took over some of these services from Central that National Rail just swapped Central for London Midland forgetting that EMT took over some Central services. This happened with the Cheshire Day Ranger, East Midlands Trains was not at first quoted as a permitted operator making travel between Crewe and Kidsgrove difficult. However, this was changed shortly afterwards.

Anyone remember when the then GNER tried to ban the use of North East Rovers on their services making Doncaster to Retford difficult?!
 

yorkie

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Anyone remember when the then GNER tried to ban the use of North East Rovers on their services making Doncaster to Retford difficult?!
Yep, I think someone then told them it was unenforceable due to the fact that the NCoC states if there is no restriction "shown on the ticket" it can be used by any train company, so their guards would spend so much time arguing it would not be worthwhile.

GNER also 'tried it on' with charging a passenger who used a non-stop train for a rover plus a ticket to Retford. The case went to court and< GNER lost :lol:

Some railway companies think that top secret conditions that they make up are enforceable. They think that courts will share their view that their own customers are complete scum. They were proved wrong :D

We need more people to take the TOCs to court to prove that the way they treat customers is unfair in many other ways. I'd certainly donate to the cause if someone was prepared to make a case.
 
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tony_mac

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But the ticket is NOT advertised as being valid on all lines listed on the map.
It says 'Only valid within the area shown on the map.'
I think that the only common-sense interpretation is that it is valid on all the lines listed on the map - the map clearly only shows specific lines, what else could it mean?
Do the customers really have to check the timetables against the list of train operators to see if the journey shown on the map can actually be made before they can rely on the map they were given? No, of course not, that would be completely unreasonable.

It clearly states within both the FRPP and on the National Rail website (the latter of which is updated weekly) that the ticket is only "Valid on the services of the following Operators".
Actually, it doesn't. But even if it did then it would contradict any common-sense interpretation of the map, and hence would not be enforceable anyway.

I do agree the map is slightly misleading and could lead to questions of why are the lines such as Matlock even listed on the map in the first place. But unfortunately the wording is very clear about what is and what is not valid with this particular ticket.

It's not 'slightly misleading' at all - common sense says that it is clearly showing validity on those lines. The wording (on the NR website at least) is actually much less clear.

The map and words are contradictory; the customer can reasonably assume that the less stringent criteria applies - or even just the most obvious. It does not show 'not valid on EMT' anything like as clearly as it shows valid from Matlock to Derby.

If the National Rail website is updated with these things weekly, why does it still show the Ffestiniog Round Robin as only valid on Arriva Trains Wales, when that obviously isn't true either?
 

glynn80

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I have laid out the arguement over and over again.

  • The map is not the only condition attached to the Coast & Peaks Rail Rover ticket, the list of operators is just as important a condition as said map. The wording of course says "Only valid within the area shown on the map", it does not say "Valid unconditionally within the area shown on the map", you must cross reference the map with the list of train operators to check whether the journey you wish to make is a valid one. The map is not contradicting any wording within any of the official documents, the map shows where you can travel, but the passenger is also restricted by the TOCs he can travel with. I agree the map is slightly misleading by even having the branch there, but certainly is not contradictory.

  • The Northern leaflet is not an "official" document and is not an authoritative source for information for this ticket apart from when discussing their own particular services.

  • As I have previously stated above, this could of course be an error on both the part of the FRPP and National Rail websites, if it is a quick email to ATOC would resolve the issue. EDIT: I have sent an email off to ATOC this afternoon and am awaiting reply, which most likely will arrive next week.

  • The logic displayed by some members here, is that the map is the most important part of the conditions for Rover products and that the list of operators is an irrelevance. The fact of the matter is however, if an operator is not participating within a particular Rover scheme, they will get no revenue from those services. By those members' above's reasoning, if the ticket is valid on EMT, is it valid on Wrexham & Shropshire as well even though they definitely get no revenue from this ticket. Any passenger looking at the map on the National Rail wesbite, would see they could use their services between Telford and Wrexham General, they would ignore the list of operators on the website because apparently their an irrelevance and just travel. Bear in mind in this scenario the passenger would be unlikely to ever look at the unofficial Northern leaflet because they are not travelling on any Northern service.

  • I doubt this will ever become a widescale issue, unless EMT were to discover they were receiving no revenue from the product, but their services were still listed on the map, finally then obviously informing guards to reject them.
 
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