Collision and derailment at Neville Hill Depot (13/11)

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Class455, 13 Nov 2019.

  1. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

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    Is what people are missing. They are focused on the impressive but less concerning nose damage and not the fact a brand new train has derailed in a collision with a closing speed of 9. It really shouldn't have. An Azuma could foreseeably hit the stops at KGX at 9, it really shouldn't fall off.

    As to crumple zones and energy absorbtion of trains. Generally its through the coupler head and into the spine of the unit.
     
  2. 158756

    158756 Member

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    If the linespeed was 15mph I would have thought the Azuma would be capable of slowing to less than 14 before impact if everything was working correctly?
     
  3. 800002

    800002 Member

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    Another intreiging question.
    One assumes the HST tail lights were operational at the time of impact.
     
  4. EE Andy b1

    EE Andy b1 Established Member

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    On train monitoring equipment or Azuma CCTV would soon prove the HST tail lamps were on or off plus the HST should have been stopped departing from Leeds if tail lamps out.
     
  5. 800002

    800002 Member

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    Indeed.
    I do hope this whole incident doesn't lead to a situation where these types of moves are not permitted to occur.
     
  6. aleggatta

    aleggatta Member

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    This does require the relevant intervention from the Driver... Speculating, I would say that someone wasn't paying attention to the hazard in front of them to stop short...
     
  7. EE Andy b1

    EE Andy b1 Established Member

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    That'll not happen, permissive working is a safe form of working more than one train in a section at a time as long as no equipment or human failure!!

    Let's not speculate too much as nobody goes out to have an incident at any time.
     
  8. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Agreed - most of the energy has gone through the coupler (missing a chunk but tube looks straight so not that big an impact).

    Longer coaches with more overhang beyond the bogie centers, dampers set for high speeds and less than perfect track geometry (even at low speeds) might not be a good mix?

    Could the 800 driver have initially thought that the HST was on the adjacent headshunt?
     
  9. EE Andy b1

    EE Andy b1 Established Member

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    I wonder if the blend of brake between Dynamic brake (electric re-generative) and air brake (discs) at that speed was a contributing factor as that was what happened to a couple of pendolinos at Liverpool Lime Street quite a few years back now when they both hit the blocks. I think the blend at speed was too low at 15 mph so it was raised to 25 mph. So from 25 to 0 mph it was just air brakes.
     
  10. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    I had been thinking similarly before the RAIB brief but the line speed is 15mph and they were doing 14 at impact...
    Difference in braking between motor and unmotored axles might be part of the which axles derail conundrum.
    The 2 bogies where both wheelsets derailed were motor bogies and 1 wheel set on a non-motored bogie
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2019
  11. 800002

    800002 Member

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    Not saying that over reactions don't occur (to limit these permissive moves), but the human factor is possibly the biggest fallible element that could (easily) be factored out of the equation.

    How many permissive working incidents have there been within the last five years?
    (It is probably a very small percentage of the overall number of moves, but could it be enough to trigger a red-think amongst the corporate bean counters?)
     
  12. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

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    Well they could try but they'd probably cripple the entire rail network overnight...
     
  13. 800002

    800002 Member

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    That's my point.

    It's perfectly within thier power, surely.
     
  14. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    How would you couple two units if you didn't allow permissive working ?
     
  15. 800002

    800002 Member

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    I believe the answer you're looking for is: you couldn't.
     
  16. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Who said there was any braking involved? The report is going to make for very interesting reading.
     
  17. Bayum

    Bayum Established Member

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    But that’s the point they’re making. Was the speed too low for the train to break effectively a la Liverpool Lime Street.
     
  18. DerekC

    DerekC Member

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    It would be surprising if the Class 800 designers had made the same mistake as on the Cl 390s - but stranger things have happened, We will just have to wait and read when the report comes out!
     
  19. Alan2603

    Alan2603 Member

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    But the Azuma did break, very effectively - it de-railed and smashed its nose.

    Or did you mean ''Was the speed too low for the train to brake effectively?'
     
  20. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    It is going to be one of those RAIB reports that is published along time later, has a list of causal factors longer any ones arm and is a long read...
     
  21. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Ummm. Wait for the report! If what I understand about the OTDR download is accurate, it’ll blow your mind! [it certainly blew mine!]
     
  22. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    OOooooH Juicy... Is it the same kind of thing that happened with the 700 braking ?
     
  23. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Not sure it is. But, file this incident in the box marked “Bizarre”. To be fair, there’s a clue in the wording of the RAIB statement. They say they are looking into the ergonomics/cab design.
     
  24. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

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    Maybe the driver thought he was in the blunt end of a class 91.
     
  25. LWB

    LWB Member

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    So it might behove the RAIB to issue a fairly prompt interim report then?
     
  26. w1bbl3

    w1bbl3 Member

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    I'm going to guess there is a sightlines issue when in close proximity to a train with another sculpted nose that makes judging distance ahead difficult if not impossible resulting drivers effectively driving "blind" as to how near or far they are?
     
  27. heedfan

    heedfan Member

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    Nah that's not it. You can't see exactly where your nose is from the cab but an HST is the same though admittedly the nose is less pronounced. You drive accordingly though.

    Speculation helps no one, and cryptic messages about what may or may not be on the OTDR don't particularly help either. The report will get to the bottom of it.
     
  28. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Well, it’s only messroom rumour after all. What I’ve been told certainly fits what the RAIB say in their statement though, so I’m inclined to believe it is accurate. We can pick the bones out of it when the RAIB make their report public!
     
  29. High Dyke

    High Dyke Established Member

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    Love the 'informed' speculation in the last few pages. I'll wait for RAIB report to be published.
     
  30. Chris M

    Chris M Member

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    The response to Hatfield demonstrated that crippling the entire rail network overnight is very much within their power.

    I'm not saying it was the right or wrong thing to do in that situation or that it would/wouldn't in this situation, merely that they did it and could do it again.
     

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