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Collision and derailment at Neville Hill Depot (13/11/2019)

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ainsworth74

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The response to Hatfield demonstrated that crippling the entire rail network overnight is very much within their power.

I'm not saying it was the right or wrong thing to do in that situation or that it would/wouldn't in this situation, merely that they did it and could do it again.
It's one thing to cripple the network because you legitimately do not know for sure what the condition of the track over large swathes of the network and people died as a result and that the impact will only last temporarily.

It's another entirely to cripple the network because of what appears to be a freak accident in which no one was seriously injured (physically at least) and would pretty much destroy the ability of the network to operate almost permanently.
 
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Chris M

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It's one thing to cripple the network because you legitimately do not know for sure what the condition of the track over large swathes of the network and people died as a result and that the impact will only last temporarily.

It's another entirely to cripple the network because of what appears to be a freak accident in which no one was seriously injured (physically at least) and would pretty much destroy the ability of the network to operate almost permanently.
As I said, my only point was that it has been done and could be done again, not that it should be.
 

Sunset route

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As I said, my only point was that it has been done and could be done again, not that it should be.

After the Stafford accident permissive working has already been restricted to where it is absolutely necessary for day to day running.

Then where would this leave the emergency permissive working instructions, which was one of the big criticisms the railway got for not introducing, when we had the mass unplanned evacuations to track during the Lewisham incident.
 

Pete_uk

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I'll put my money on somthing getting caught around the power leaver. Is it forwards or back for acceleration?
 

dk1

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I'll put my money on somthing getting caught around the power leaver. Is it forwards or back for acceleration?
That's what I commented on on the night. Remember first getting 170s in the late 90s and it came as quite a shock doing both with the left hand. Many got confused but thankfully only a couple of hard bumps/heavy couplings ensued.
 

hwl

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That's what I commented on on the night. Remember first getting 170s in the late 90s and it came as quite a shock doing both with the left hand. Many got confused but thankfully only a couple of hard bumps/heavy couplings ensued.
There is a brilliant MAIB report covering what happened when the control joystick snapped off on one of the Thames Clipper vessels approaching Blackfriars Pier (at ramming speed) that may be highly relevant in this case.
 

37057

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I'm not commenting on the actual incident (I'd rather not speculate) but more in response to the posts regarding the use of driving controls above...

While my driving experience only goes as far as the very-occasional 25 mph trundle in ex-BR locos with D&M / Westinghouse brake valves and the few-times-a-week 5 mph shuffle around the depot in modern PBC fitted units and also the odd shunt loco, but I find it difficult to understand how you can be sat at a driving desk of a train and be so unfamiliar with it that it can result in having little or no control of the task being performed as suggested above. The motion of applying the brakes, with a power-brake controller is the same or at least very similar to using a separate brake controller / valve - ie. forwards for progressive application and eventually into emergency. There are also separate emergency brake plunger-type devices should there be an issue with the PBC. When sat in a PBC fitted train, theres not much there that normally involves controlling the 'stop and go', it's the PBC and it's not even something you have to go looking for either!

In the highly unlikely event that the PBC seizes and all the E-stop devices fall to bits in your hand, open a door and break the interlock - or - if you're completely desperate there's usually a backwall of (brake control) MCBs you can trip, but that's not something I expect will ever be required to know in training. Of course theres the DSD too, but that's never a fun thing to wait for, longest six seconds or so ever.
 
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Jimini

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There is a brilliant MAIB report covering what happened when the control joystick snapped off on one of the Thames Clipper vessels approaching Blackfriars Pier (at ramming speed) that may be highly relevant in this case.

Got a link please chap? Cheers.
 

Ferret

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It's one thing to cripple the network because you legitimately do not know for sure what the condition of the track over large swathes of the network and people died as a result and that the impact will only last temporarily.

It's another entirely to cripple the network because of what appears to be a freak accident in which no one was seriously injured (physically at least) and would pretty much destroy the ability of the network to operate almost permanently.

Spot on. If my understanding of events turns out to be correct, freak accident is a perfect description. There will be some recommendations from RAIB as there should be. There isn’t as yet, any evidence that the 80x is unsafe. Why withdraw the fleet?
 

hwl

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copied from another thread.

Under its own power, 9 car formation, one vehicle on wheelskate?

So does this mean there aren’t really broken inter car couplings, badly damaged vehicle ends, etc etc... :?:
Probably just damaged wheels as I suggested several pages ago but that doesn't suit many agendas on this thread.
Isolating the traction motors and getting the suspension airbag pressure (if any?) right will have take a bit of time. 5mph max over everything suggest quite a bit of wheel / bogie damage. (Or no one was used skate on an 800 before...)
 

Grumpy Git

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6 hours is no time at all when you consider how long (and expensive) it would be to transport it individually by low loader on lorries.
 

D6700

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Probably just damaged wheels as I suggested several pages ago but that doesn't suit many agendas on this thread.
Isolating the traction motors and getting the suspension airbag pressure (if any?) right will have take a bit of time. 5mph max over everything suggest quite a bit of wheel / bogie damage. (Or no one was used skate on an 800 before...)

Not just damaged wheels on the skated vehicle, but clearly the train overall wasn't damaged enough to completely disable it. The skate limited the speed of the movement to 15/10/3 mph variously. Also need to stop many times to inspect the skate.
 

hwl

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6 hours is no time at all when you consider how long (and expensive) it would be to transport it individually by low loader on lorries.
Agreed - the real limitation is waiting for a Sunday night when it is just a tad quieter...
 

big all

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copied from another thread.

Under its own power, 9 car formation, one vehicle on wheelskate?

So does this mean there aren’t really broken inter car couplings, badly damaged vehicle ends, etc etc... :?:
The situation will be assessed and a game plan formed.

In the first instance, it will be actions required to achieve the main goal of getting the unit off the main line to a suitable point.

The second action is getting it ready to get it to Doncaster, at a speed restricted to in this case, walking pace.

Anything that is bent or buckled and likely to effect this movement or fail will be addressed; everything else will be ignored, so other bent broken components will be left to be assessed at Doncaster.
 

Chris M

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But the 2 situations are NOT comparable?
I didn't say they were. I just said that crippling the network had been done before and therefore it is possible for it to done. This was my entire point, and was in response to someone asking whether it was possible. I explicitly said nothing about whether it should be done because I knew that without it someone would think I was advocating for it. It turns out that even with an explicit comment that I'm not advocating it more than one person still thinks I am.
And what do you propose to replace "permissive working"?
I'm not proposing to replace permissive working. I explicitly said in my original post that I was not proposing anything. I have explicitly said since that I am not proposing anything.
I simply said that a restriction implement in the aftermath of an accident that crippled the network proves that it is possible to implement a restriction in the aftermath of an accident that cripples the network. Possible. Not "likely", not "realistic", not "should", not that it would be a good idea to, not that it would make sense to, just "possible".
 

Bayum

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Ummm. Wait for the report! If what I understand about the OTDR download is accurate, it’ll blow your mind! [it certainly blew mine!]
I was explaining a point rather than making a statement.
 

EE Andy b1

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I'll put my money on something getting caught around the power leaver. Is it forwards or back for acceleration?
Forwards for braking, backwards for accelerating but the PBC (power brake controller) should be latched in the neutral position so you can't just go straight from brake to power, but you can go straight from power to brake, and has been said there are emergency brake plungers.
 

4REP

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someone has put a video on you tube saying a tribute to 800109 and farewell r.i.p etc is the unit going to be scrapped?
 

Grumpy Git

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someone has put a video on you tube saying a tribute to 800109 and farewell r.i.p etc is the unit going to be scrapped?
I don't think it would have run to Doncaster under it's own power if it had been so badly damaged as to consider scrapping it.

I guess someone is being mischievous?
 
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FrodshamJnct

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someone has put a video on you tube saying a tribute to 800109 and farewell r.i.p etc is the unit going to be scrapped?

If you read the comments underneath the person who uploaded it clearly doesn’t know what they’re talking about. A misleading video title - not sure if it was intentional though.
 

RealTrains07

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Its very concerning that the 800 took so much damage compared to the HST

cheap trains arn’t always the safest option

just think if this was a serious crash, how would the 800 manage in that? o_O
 
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