Combination of season ticket and return - Is route valid

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marsbeignet

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Hopefully a quick question -

I hold an annual St Neots to London Terminals season ticket.

I buy an Anytime return zone 1-3 to Stansted Airport.

Obviously the combination of tickets is valid via Kings Cross and the tube to Liverpool St and then Stansted (or via Finsbury Park and Tottenham Hale).

However is the combination of tickets valid via Peterborough to Stansted Airport. I have had conflicting advice.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Using the Routeing Guide provided on the ATOC website, I'd say not valid that way.
 
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crehld

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Using the Routeing Guide provided on the ATOC website, I'd say not valid that way.

Agreed. Neither ticket offers validity via Peterborough.

If you want to go via Peterborough a St Neots to Stansted Airport ticket routed NOT VIA LONDON should suffice.
 

marsbeignet

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Using the Routeing Guide provided on the ATOC website, I'd say not valid that way.

Would you be able to explain.

From looking at National Rail Enquiries it seems that two tickets are sold -
- via London which is also valid via Peterborough
- only via Peterborough

The first is more expensive than the second.

My understanding was that as one ticket was a season ticket and the other was not they could be used for "one journey" without the train needing to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to another.

Therefore as a 'via London' Anytime return is valid via Peterborough, why would the combination being used for "one journey" not be?

Agreed. Neither ticket offers validity via Peterborough.

Agreed, because that would be absurd for a St Neots to London or a London to Stansted Airport ticket.

However neither ticket says "not via Peterborough" and as the tickets are being used for "one journey" what restriction prevents the use via Peterborough?

In essence are they still regarded as two tickets, or does the combination create a 'new' ticket?
 
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OwlMan

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Ticket validity is worked out per ticket not per journey; so your season ticket is valid to London and then your Stanstead ticket takes you from London to Stanstead.
When combining tickets the permitted route of each ticket is worked out separately and must meet at some point (which is where you chamge ticket.)
 
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marsbeignet

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When combining tickets the permitted route of each ticket is worked out separately and must meet at some point (which is where you chamge ticket.)

Thanks for that.

Out of interest where does it mention that in the Routing Guide?
 

bb21

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It may be one journey, but they are still two fares/tickets.They do not become one fare because you use them in combination.

Your confusion comes from trying to apply a rule on a fare to a journey.
 

OwlMan

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Thanks for that.

Out of interest where does it mention that in the Routing Guide?
see the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) I have highlighted the relevent part.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing
trains;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.
If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended
route is valid with your ticket.
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within
the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted
routes”
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would
have entitled you to travel by that route.
 

crehld

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Agreed, because that would be absurd for a St Neots to London or a London to Stansted Airport ticket.

However neither ticket says "not via Peterborough" and as the tickets are being used for "one journey" what restriction prevents the use via Peterborough?

In essence are they still regarded as two tickets, or does the combination create a 'new' ticket?

To be fair, neither ticket says "not via Aberdeen" or "not via Birmingham" either - doesn't mean you can go via those stations.

Combining tickets is perfectly legitimate, but as OwlMan says you still need to travel on valid routes for those tickets. Neither of the tickets you hold permits travel via Peterborough. I'm afraid ticketing and routing is far from clear and simple, so if you're unfamiliar with the system then your confusion is completely understandable - luckily this forum is on hand to help ;)

My advice for your journey is as follows:

- If you really want to go via Peterborough then purchase a St Neots to Stansted Airport ticket routed "NOT VIA LONDON".

- A cheaper option, although not via Peterborough, is to make use of your season ticket between St Neots and Hitchin, and then purchase a Hitchin to Stansted Airport ticket routed "NOT VIA LONDON" (incidentally the St Neots to Stansted Airport ticket routed "NOT VIA LONDON" is also valid this way, so you could travel via Peterborough and Ely one way, and return via Cambridge and Hitchin the other).

- Using your season ticket and then purchasing a London to Stansted Airport ticket (as you initially proposed) is also cheaper than a St Neots to Stansted Airport ticket and permits you to travel from St Neots to London, and then London to Stansted Airport.

- If you want the flexibility of going via Peterborough or via London, buy a St Neots to Stansted Airport ticket routed "+ANY PERMITTED". This is valid both ways, and also includes travel on the London Underground between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street if going that direction and if required.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Would you be able to explain.

From looking at National Rail Enquiries it seems that two tickets are sold -
- via London which is also valid via Peterborough
- only via Peterborough

The first is more expensive than the second.

My understanding was that as one ticket was a season ticket and the other was not they could be used for "one journey" without the train needing to stop at the station where you change from one ticket to another.

Therefore as a 'via London' Anytime return is valid via Peterborough, why would the combination being used for "one journey" not be?....

If you had a St Neots-Stansted Airport "+Any Permitted" ticket you could indeed go via London or via Peterborough, but you do not have this ticket.

Having a combination of a St Neots-London ticket and a London-Stansted Airport ticket is not the same as having a St Neots-Stansted Airport ticket. As OwlMan notes, each ticket has a set of permitted routes and, just as you are using a combination of tickets, you must use a combination of these routes.

As neither of the tickets you are suggesting is valid to, from or via Peterborough, this is not a permitted route for that combination.
 

marsbeignet

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see the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) I have highlighted the relevent part.

Thanks again. By quoting the NRCoC I assume that there is nothing in the Routing Guide that mentions using combinations of tickets for one journey.

So I assume it comes down to an interpretation of rule 19. Interesting.

- A cheaper option, although not via Peterborough

Actually it was cheaper to go via London.

GNR did their usual of cancelling the London train at the last moment, so meant that I arrived at Stansted an hour later than I should have done and therefore as it was "one journey" delay repay kicked in for the all the tickets.

Had I been able to go via Peterborough there would have been less delay.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....So I assume it comes down to an interpretation of rule 19. Interesting.....

Not really.

On your season ticket, and on any other ticket for that matter, will be something like "This ticket is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage".

The Conditions of Carriage are the terms and conditions that you agree to when you pay a fare, a contract, the ticket you hold is evidence of the fare you have paid and what it might entitle you to.

Within the Conditions is both Condition 19 (using a combination of tickets) and Condition 13 (the route you are entitled to take). Condition 13 tells you that a ticket is valid for the routes shown in the Routeing Guide.

If you pay two fares, and get two tickets, you have two contracts and thus two sets of routes.
 

AlterEgo

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To nail it down for the OP:

If you had a London-Manchester ticket with Virgin and a Manchester-York ticket with TPE you can't travel London-York from Kings Cross with Grand Central.

Grand Central will have received none of the revenue from the sale of either ticket.

Hopefully this makes sense to the OP.
 

marsbeignet

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Not really.

On your season ticket, and on any other ticket for that matter, will be something like "This ticket is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage".

The Conditions of Carriage are the terms and conditions that you agree to when you pay a fare, a contract, the ticket you hold is evidence of the fare you have paid and what it might entitle you to.

Within the Conditions is both Condition 19 (using a combination of tickets) and Condition 13 (the route you are entitled to take). Condition 13 tells you that a ticket is valid for the routes shown in the Routeing Guide.

If you pay two fares, and get two tickets, you have two contracts and thus two sets of routes.

If so it is interesting to see that the NRCoC says in relation to delays -

"Claim compensation if your arrival at the station on your ticket is delayed by an hour or more due to events within the rail industry’s control. Some Train Companies offer compensation for delays of more than 30 minutes in their Passenger’s Charters."

So I assume that it is only those companies that have extended the delay repay rights in their Passenger Charter to "journey" that are liable for delays at the end of a journey using a combination of tickets.

For those that haven't extended the right, they would only be liable to compensate for their ticket and only if their train was over an hour late.

For example an A to B to C journey, 59 minutes late on A to B, but the knock on causing a two hour delay getting to C although trains on B to C were running on time.

So the customer can't claim anything from the company running A to B even though they ended up two hours late, or can they claim from the company running B to C if they do have a Passenger Charter?
 

crehld

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To nail it down for the OP:

If you had a London-Manchester ticket with Virgin and a Manchester-York ticket with TPE you can't travel London-York from Kings Cross with Grand Central.

Grand Central will have received none of the revenue from the sale of either ticket.

Hopefully this makes sense to the OP.

I'm not sure it does make sense, personally. The allocation of revenue (information anyone outside of the industry is not party to) is wholly irrelevant in determining permitted routes. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (which OwlMan helpfully cited above) sets the parameters of permitted routes and these are defined as:

- The shortest distance by scheduled passenger services
- Direct trains
- Routes permitted in the national routing guide.

Further conditions apply to splitting tickets, but again the allocation of revenue within the industry is irrelevant to this.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If so it is interesting to see that the NRCoC says in relation to delays -

"Claim compensation if your arrival at the station on your ticket is delayed by an hour or more due to events within the rail industry’s control. Some Train Companies offer compensation for delays of more than 30 minutes in their Passenger’s Charters."

So I assume that it is only those companies that have extended the delay repay rights in their Passenger Charter to "journey" that are liable for delays at the end of a journey using a combination of tickets.

For those that haven't extended the right, they would only be liable to compensate for their ticket and only if their train was over an hour late.

For example an A to B to C journey, 59 minutes late on A to B, but the knock on causing a two hour delay getting to C although trains on B to C were running on time.

So the customer can't claim anything from the company running A to B even though they ended up two hours late, or can they claim from the company running B to C if they do have a Passenger Charter?

As Yorkie is so fond of saying, they may give you more, but they cannot give you less.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm not sure it does make sense, personally. The allocation of revenue (information anyone outside of the industry is not party to) is wholly irrelevant in determining permitted routes. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (which OwlMan helpfully cited above) sets the parameters of permitted routes and these are defined as:

- The shortest distance by scheduled passenger services
- Direct trains
- Routes permitted in the national routing guide.

Further conditions apply to splitting tickets, but again the allocation of revenue within the industry is irrelevant to this.

Absolutely correct in all points, but I was trying to take the explanation down a notch for a layman.

The system - as you correctly describe it - is generally set up to ensure that companies receive fair remuneration under ORCATS for passengers carried. There are some big anomalies but it's the general principle I was trying to convey.

Basically: "why would a London-Manchester and Manchester-York ticket not be valid directly"?

The long answer is as you describe comprehensively above. The short answer is that such a scenario would be daft given how ORCATS operates.
 

crehld

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If so it is interesting to see that the NRCoC says in relation to delays -

"Claim compensation if your arrival at the station on your ticket is delayed by an hour or more due to events within the rail industry’s control. Some Train Companies offer compensation for delays of more than 30 minutes in their Passenger’s Charters."

So I assume that it is only those companies that have extended the delay repay rights in their Passenger Charter to "journey" that are liable for delays at the end of a journey using a combination of tickets.

For those that haven't extended the right, they would only be liable to compensate for their ticket and only if their train was over an hour late.

For example an A to B to C journey, 59 minutes late on A to B, but the knock on causing a two hour delay getting to C although trains on B to C were running on time.

So the customer can't claim anything from the company running A to B even though they ended up two hours late, or can they claim from the company running B to C if they do have a Passenger Charter?

In depends on the scheme in operation. Without checking, I think almost all delay compensation schemes operated by TOCs go above and beyond the minimum set by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. As such many schemes (if not all?) base their level of compensation based on your journey, rather individual legs of each journey broken down by the tickets held.

You indicated above you were delayed by Great Northern - they operate a scheme where compensation is based on the delay to your whole journey, and so should pay a level of compensation based on all tickets held to complete you journey.
 

marsbeignet

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In depends on the scheme in operation. Without checking, I think almost all delay compensation schemes operated by TOCs go above and beyond the minimum set by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. As such many schemes (if not all?) base their level of compensation based on your journey, rather individual legs of each journey broken down by the tickets held.

You indicated above you were delayed by Great Northern - they operate a scheme where compensation is based on the delay to your whole journey, and so should pay a level of compensation based on all tickets held to complete you journey.

Yes they will pay for the part of the contract they didn't enter into and didn't receive any revenue for (by heart bleeds for them).

However I mentioned it as it seemed when using a combination of tickets where one company had a delay repay scheme and the other didn't (only the NRCoC) either -

- The customer would receive nothing; or
- The company that didn't cause the delay would end up liable to pay.
 
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