Comeuppance! (Passengers traveling in 1st without valid ticket caught)

[SpacePhoenix]

I remember years ago it would be fairly common for people on the train at Weymouth to be eating fish&chips

 

[Deepgreen]

Where would I have stood in this situation. I know you can walk through 1st if it is in the centre of a train. As I often do to get to the toilet on a LM service and on the SN service to/from MKC, but last week I was on the latter SN service and needed to speak to the guard. He was in first so I entered it and spoke to him, then left. Could RPI have taken an issue with that?

(I was on an advance ticket and my connection had been cancelled so I needed assistance with onward travel plans. The conversation resulted in him giving my "permission to travel" via an alternative route, quicker then waiting for the next direct connection and still sticking to the TOC restriction on the ticket.)

If you need to contact the guard of a train (as passengers are frequently invited to do should they need to) you are entitled to seek him/her in any part of the train. Walking into first class for this purpose, talking to the gaurd and leaving again is no exception.

 

[jon0844]

On my LM service from BHI to London yesterday, three kids came in to first class for a bit - and left when the guard opened the doors to say 'please have your first class tickets ready' before going away to come back after the next stop.

The result was that all three left first class. Two got off and the other stood outside in the vestibule and made me wonder if he was going to come back in after the ticket check. As it turned out, he did come back in but then walked through and presumably sat down somewhere else.

Ultimately, they did all get away without having to pay extra for first class (or possibly a ticket at all).

The thing is, all three seemed so uncomfortable being in the compartment, almost jumping every time the doors opened as someone walked through for the toilets, and it makes me wonder why people even bother.

I just want to sit down and relax, worrying only about when to get off. Why put yourself through unnecessary stress? To show off?

 

[Deepgreen]

The winding up of passengers is an unintended consequence of sitting in first class in a high visiblity jacket. If a passenger makes assumptions based on the way I have dressed about weather I am carrying a first class ticket or not. That is their problem not mine.

But it's NOT unintended if the post states "if you really want to wind people up...", is it? Also - "weather" or whether?

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that, along with every other human being, I make judgements (if any) about other people based on their appearance, behaviour and actions. There is nothing else to use. If someone sits in first class in scruffy clothes, hi-vis clothes, etc., but is not constantly nervously looking down the train, has not previously been standing and then suddenly decides to sit down, etc, etc., then I might assume that they have a right to be there. There again, given the number of people who seem to be totally unaware of their surroundings, I might not!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because there are no dispatch facilities in the vestibule next to first class, so at each station there would be a delay to squeeze through the train to get the train going. Plus, no matter how much you want it to be true, we cannot spend all our time on the train checking first class. There are many other punters and goings on involved. I once, on a very busy train had a punter before boarding, said, I hope you are going to check first class', then proceeded to walk to the first class bit in coach 1 of a 12 car full and standing train. When the train cleared out and I managed to get through checking tickets, I did get to the first class bit where he was, but we are not miracle workers, if a train is -packed, we cannot get through, and have to think of being in the correct places for dispatch. And sometimes a plan to check tickets can be trashed by a wheelchair, or someone needed assistance.
But don't worry, perhaps we will soon all be gone and replaced by some customer service thingimy, who may, or may not be on your train and will be gone by the next franchise change over anyway.

Your first sentence tells me all I need to know to answer my query - which, by the way, was not aimed as a criticism of guards in general, but just as a query about the reasons behind the situation - thanks. I, for one, would far rather have guards aboard than some customer service role that would probably know little about train operation!

It was interesting this morning when the guard of my train walked through first class between our Coulsdon South and East Croydon stops and went straight into the rear cab without checking any tickets. Nevertheless, the mere appearance of him coming through prompted three passengers to scurry off to standard! One of these had previously sat down in first, then got up to go to standard, decided that the seats available there were not to her liking and came back and sat down in first again. She was one of the three who hurried out when the guard walked through. One woman with a suitcase and a pushachair who had got on at Redhill told someone on her 'phone that she "shouldn't be in 'ere but I can't be ar*ed to walk through", which was lovely.

Are Redhill line workings DOO from East Croydon to London, by the way, as guards usually go to the rear cab for that section, or is there another reason for this?

 

[hounddog]

I'm starting to think I'm the only person whose annoyance with people eating on the train is that it usually makes me hungry rather than leaving me feeling disgusted or outraged or similar!

No, I'm with you. At least if they're eating something I like.

 

[sarahj]

But it's NOT unintended if the post states "if you really want to wind people up...", is it? Also - "weather" or whether?

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that, along with every other human being, I make judgements (if any) about other people based on their appearance, behaviour and actions. There is nothing else to use. If someone sits in first class in scruffy clothes, hi-vis clothes, etc., but is not constantly nervously looking down the train, has not previously been standing and then suddenly decides to sit down, etc, etc., then I might assume that they have a right to be there. There again, given the number of people who seem to be totally unaware of their surroundings, I might not!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Your first sentence tells me all I need to know to answer my query - which, by the way, was not aimed as a criticism of guards in general, but just as a query about the reasons behind the situation - thanks. I, for one, would far rather have guards aboard than some customer service role that would probably know little about train operation!

It was interesting this morning when the guard of my train walked through first class between our Coulsdon South and East Croydon stops and went straight into the rear cab without checking any tickets. Nevertheless, the mere appearance of him coming through prompted three passengers to scurry off to standard! One of these had previously sat down in first, then got up to go to standard, decided that the seats available there were not to her liking and came back and sat down in first again. She was one of the three who hurried out when the guard walked through. One woman with a suitcase and a pushachair who had got on at Redhill told someone on her 'phone that she "shouldn't be in 'ere but I can't be ar*ed to walk through", which was lovely.

Are Redhill line workings DOO from East Croydon to London, by the way, as guards usually go to the rear cab for that section, or is there another reason for this?

No, the only reason* that the guard might move to the rear cab is if the trains become super full at croydon. If your in a vestibule and suddenly the train becomes super full, you can get squeezed out, esp knowing that you have to move sides for New Cross Gate, so more than likely they are moving there so as not to delay the train further.
* Though I have to say this as a week last Tuesday, I was working what we call the 'Horsham Stoppers'. during the day and I had a massive cold/runny nose/constant sneezing, which the punters did NOT appreciate. So I worked my trains that day all from the back cab. Unclean

 

[matt_world2004]

But it's NOT unintended if the post states "if you really want to wind people up...", is it? Also - "weather" or whether?

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that, along with every other human being, I make judgements (if any) about other people based on their appearance, behaviour and actions. There is nothing else to use. If someone sits in first class in scruffy clothes, hi-vis clothes, etc., but is not constantly nervously looking down the train, has not previously been standing and then suddenly decides to sit down, etc, etc., then I might assume that they have a right to be there. There again, given the number of people who seem to be totally unaware of their surroundings, I might not!

I think you are slightly misreading tone there . I highly doubt someone pays for first class with a hivi with the primary purpose of winding people up.none the less it does wind people up as people make assumptions. However if you saw a person in a business suit sitting in first class looking around. Not immediately sitting down in first class. You would make the same assumption. Therefore how the person dresses is irrelevant. Also who is more likely to not have the correct ticket. Someone who is quite conspcious in the environment or someone who is hoping not to get noticed.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think you are slightly misreading tone there . I highly doubt someone pays for first class with a hivi with the primary purpose of winding people up.none the less it does wind people up as people make assumptions. However if you saw a person in a business suit sitting in first class looking around. Not immediately sitting down in first class. You would make the same assumption. Therefore how the person dresses is irrelevant. Also who is more likely to not have the correct ticket. Someone who is quite conspcious in the environment or someone who is hoping not to get noticed.

Of course - no-one would pay to do that, obviously, but the poster clearly showed a glee in "winding people up", which is unhelpful.

Clothing alone is no basis for any judgements, which is why I specifically said that any judgements made without facts (and let's not pretend that we don't all form views of others in public based on first impressions) can only be on the basis of appearance, behaviour and actions - and, even then, might turn out to be wrong. For example, I have witnessed many 'suits' exhibit the same behaviours as 'hi-vi's (for want of better terms) - e.g. standing for a few minutes then deciding to sit. My judgement of them is just the same as anyone else - their behaviour leads me to believe that they don't have a first class ticket. Incidentally, I will never condescendingly tell them that they are in first class (and, by implication, they shouldn't be) - it's not my place to do so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, the only reason* that the guard might move to the rear cab is if the trains become super full at croydon. If your in a vestibule and suddenly the train becomes super full, you can get squeezed out, esp knowing that you have to move sides for New Cross Gate, so more than likely they are moving there so as not to delay the train further.
* Though I have to say this as a week last Tuesday, I was working what we call the 'Horsham Stoppers'. during the day and I had a massive cold/runny nose/constant sneezing, which the punters did NOT appreciate. So I worked my trains that day all from the back cab. Unclean

Thanks, Sarah - I didn't think they were DOO. As I said, though, the guard this morning went to the rear cab well before East Croydon (and the train wasn't very full thereafter anyway). It's a slightly quirky train, the 0831 from Redhill, as it comes from Horsham and is a five car 377, to Victoria. It must be the sequencing of trains at East Croydon that means it hardly ever picks up more than a handful of passengers there (at least at the back of the train anyway).

 

[matt_world2004]

Of course - no-one would pay to do that, obviously, but the poster clearly showed a glee in "winding people up", which is unhelpful.

Clothing alone is no basis for any judgements, which is why I specifically said that any judgements made without facts (and let's not pretend that we don't all form views of others in public based on first impressions) can only be on the basis of appearance, behaviour and actions - and, even then, might turn out to be wrong. For example, I have witnessed many 'suits' exhibit the same behaviours as 'hi-vi's (for want of better terms) - e.g. standing for a few minutes then deciding to sit. My judgement of them is just the same as anyone else - their behaviour leads me to believe that they don't have a first class ticket. Incidentally, I will never condescendingly tell them that they are in first class (and, by implication, they shouldn't be) - it's not my place to do so.

its not glee. Its just acceptance that you are going to get idiots who make assumptions about peoples tickets based on the way people are dressed. Personally my reason for sitting in first class with a paid ticket is a.) I have been standing for 14 hours b.) I dont want to become an unpaid customer service point for swt

if some idiots in suits want to make a judgement on that is their problem.

 

[Deepgreen]

its not glee. Its just acceptance that you are going to get idiots who make assumptions about peoples tickets based on the way people are dressed. Personally my reason for sitting in first class with a paid ticket is a.) I have been standing for 14 hours b.) I dont want to become an unpaid customer service point for swt

if some idiots in suits want to make a judgement on that is their problem.

If you are entitled to sit in first class; quite right - why wouldn't you? You don't need any other reason/justification. Suits are not necessary attire to be judgemental.

 

[matt_world2004]

If you are entitled to sit in first class; quite right - why wouldn't you? You don't need any other reason/justification. Suits are not necessary attire to be judgemental.

No they are not nessescary to be judgemental. However in the circumstances described you are not going to get someone wearing a hoodie have a go at someone in a hivi for sitting in first class on dress code alone because they themselves are not conforming to the stereotype.

 

[Deepgreen]

No they are not nessescary to be judgemental. However in the circumstances described you are not going to get someone wearing a hoodie have a go at someone in a hivi for sitting in first class on dress code alone because they themselves are not conforming to the stereotype.

Quite - the only people who should "have a go at" someone in first who shouldn't be there are the relevant staff (guard/TTIs).

 

[AndrewE]

Quite - the only people who should "have a go at" someone in first who shouldn't be there are the relevant staff (guard/TTIs).

I agree.
My take on this is that wearing HV clothing means you have been out and about on the running railway, which for me almost invariably meant gettting dirty, even when you didn't expect to. I would hope that people travelling on the cushions can avoid transferring dirt into passenger accommodation.

 

[John @ home]

My take on this is that wearing HV clothing means you have been out and about on the running railway,

Not agreed. Wearing HV clothing on a train can mean you are travelling to the site of an incident. The incident need not have anything to do with the railway.

 

[matt_world2004]

I agree.
My take on this is that wearing HV clothing means you have been out and about on the running railway, which for me almost invariably meant gettting dirty, even when you didn't expect to. I would hope that people travelling on the cushions can avoid transferring dirt into passenger accommodation.

loads of professions require high visibility jackets that are not dirty environments. Any profession working in an environment where you share space with motor vehicles for example. Csa/travel ambassadors at train and coach stations another

Security guards in buildings.

 

[iainbhx]

The only time I'd have any issue with it (and only a very small one) is if a paying passenger had to stand - I'd like to think that their 'customer first' attitude would mean that they'd volunteer the seat. But if they didn't, that's between them and their conscience and none of my business.

That's the only time I've ever had an issue with it on a very crowded TPE from Stockport to Sheffield. Even the guard sympathised, saying that one of them should have offered their seat. However, at least I was allowed to stand in First as opposed to Sardine Class.

 

[Deepgreen]

Ridiculous this morning, with the first class at the London end of my train (unit 377605) from Redhill which had a few in first until East Croydon (including two females who nervously sat down and checked the gangway frequently), then completely filled at East Croydon with people who largely simply sat down without even taking their eyes off their 'phones! It's unbelievable how so many people just go around seemingly totally unaware of their surroundings. No ticket checks throughout.
Ironically, my GWR train from Betchworth to Redhill (which since last October has not carried first class) had four TTIs and a 'spare' conductor/guard aboard. The latter was selling tickets and the four TTIs were seemingly off-duty, although two went to the rear and two to the front. While two were in FGW uniform, the other two were in what I am pretty sure was Southern uniform for some reason! They boarded with me at Betchworth and I assume they all must have got off a previous train during an 'incident' - I can't imagine they would have been delivered there by road.

 

[trainophile]

Ridiculous this morning, with the first class at the London end of my train (unit 377605) from Redhill which had a few in first until East Croydon (including two females who nervously sat down and checked the gangway frequently), then completely filled at East Croydon with people who largely simply sat down without even taking their eyes off their 'phones! It's unbelievable how so many people just go around seemingly totally unaware of their surroundings. No ticket checks throughout.

I hope they realise that being engrossed in a phone is no excuse for sitting in First "by accident" :roll: .

 

[Deepgreen]

I hope they realise that being engrossed in a phone is no excuse for sitting in First "by accident" :roll: .

I don't suppose the concept would have occurred to them. A large number of people travelling between London and Clapham Junction/East Croydon appear to think that first class is automatically de-classified over this section!

 

[Llanigraham]

I agree.
My take on this is that wearing HV clothing means you have been out and about on the running railway, which for me almost invariably meant gettting dirty, even when you didn't expect to. I would hope that people travelling on the cushions can avoid transferring dirt into passenger accommodation.

I was required to wear hi-vis at times at my signalbox, as are many others, and we don't get dirty! Ditto many LOM's and MOM's wear theirs at all times and don't get dirty.
Your comment suggests you know little of those that do wear hi-vis!

 

[Deepgreen]

I was required to wear hi-vis at times at my signalbox, as are many others, and we don't get dirty! Ditto many LOM's and MOM's wear theirs at all times and don't get dirty.
Your comment suggests you know little of those that do wear hi-vis!

Mark Carne's neck-to-toe hi-vis kit, safety glasses and helmet all looked very clean the other morning when he was being interviewed at Waterloo!

Last evening, we had the very rare presence of (plain-clothed) TTIs on my train south of East Croydon to Redhill and beyond, who boarded (through the guard's door - what a give-away!) at East Croydon. I almost (but not quite) felt sorry (on the basis of timing alone) for the woman who had literally just entered first class, stood for a few seconds, looked up and down the train and decided to sit down, only to be asked for her ticket about ten seconds after! She was most aggrieved, talking about victimisation, and all sorts of other rubbish, demanding the TTI's details and also demanding that he write them down for her - which he declined to do, insisting that she do the writing.

Plain-clothed is the way forward - now extend it to road speed cameras (i.e. don't advertise them or paint them yellow) and we're getting somewhere!

 

[Sprinter153]

Ridiculous this morning, with the first class at the London end of my train (unit 377605) from Redhill which had a few in first until East Croydon (including two females who nervously sat down and checked the gangway frequently), then completely filled at East Croydon with people who largely simply sat down without even taking their eyes off their 'phones! It's unbelievable how so many people just go around seemingly totally unaware of their surroundings. No ticket checks throughout.
Ironically, my GWR train from Betchworth to Redhill (which since last October has not carried first class) had four TTIs and a 'spare' conductor/guard aboard. The latter was selling tickets and the four TTIs were seemingly off-duty, although two went to the rear and two to the front. While two were in FGW uniform, the other two were in what I am pretty sure was Southern uniform for some reason! They boarded with me at Betchworth and I assume they all must have got off a previous train during an 'incident' - I can't imagine they would have been delivered there by road.

The new GWR uniform is quite similar to Southern uniform, it's rolling out towards the end of the month but I know some staff are already wearing it.

The only other Southern arrangement with GWR is Redhill-based Southern drivers work a number of trains throughout the day, particularly early and late.

 

[Deepgreen]

The new GWR uniform is quite similar to Southern uniform, it's rolling out towards the end of the month but I know some staff are already wearing it.

The only other Southern arrangement with GWR is Redhill-based Southern drivers work a number of trains throughout the day, particularly early and late.

Thanks - that was probably it. I was aware of the Southern driver arrangement - one of the regulars on my morning train, with whom I chat on arrival at Redhill, is a Southern driver.

 

[[.n]]

I (thankfully) don't have to travel on Southern trains often (usually only twice a week to/from Victoria/East Croydon), but I do find it incredibly annoying not being able to board the train let alone get the 1st class section where I should be able to get a seat if not for the huge amount of people with standard tickets occupying the seats. I quite often find that it can take several trains to be able to get to London in the morning (partly because as a non regular traveller I haven't got the hang of Platform 1 vs Platform 4 and which trains are 4/8/12 coaches!)

 

[Deepgreen]

Because there are no dispatch facilities in the vestibule next to first class, so at each station there would be a delay to squeeze through the train to get the train going. Plus, no matter how much you want it to be true, we cannot spend all our time on the train checking first class. There are many other punters and goings on involved. I once, on a very busy train had a punter before boarding, said, I hope you are going to check first class', then proceeded to walk to the first class bit in coach 1 of a 12 car full and standing train. When the train cleared out and I managed to get through checking tickets, I did get to the first class bit where he was, but we are not miracle workers, if a train is -packed, we cannot get through, and have to think of being in the correct places for dispatch. And sometimes a plan to check tickets can be trashed by a wheelchair, or someone needed assistance.
But don't worry, perhaps we will soon all be gone and replaced by some customer service thingimy, who may, or may not be on your train and will be gone by the next franchise change over anyway.

Much though I am loathe to contradict someone who does the job, my train this morning was formed of 377601 and the first class section (inner end of one driving car) did have guard's facilities at the vestibule contained within the first class area. The guard used it at Coulsdon South, during his extensive and effective clear-out of people in first who had standard tickets. I was depressed by the attitudes of those he removed - a combination of expectation of being moved but taking the chance anyway, and annoyance at being moved as if it was their right to be there!

This guard was also conscientious in his duties as he reported (by 'phone) a defective door (yet another one) between the standard and first sections.

 

[jon0844]

Assuming the 1st class compartments are clearly marked, and that includes with the doors broken and fixed open, then nobody deserves any mercy.

In the case of GN 365s, where first class is written on the doors and often the doors are fixed open (as the sensors are busted and would trap people inside on the stock that doesn't have the internal buttons) then the lack of stickers on the window and just a small 'this is first class' sign written by the door to the cab, is not sufficient.

Sure, each seat as an antimacassar but they're obstructed if someone is already seated.

I do think a TOC should make sure that first class IS clearly marked for the few who genuinely wouldn't know.

 

[Deepgreen]

Assuming the 1st class compartments are clearly marked, and that includes with the doors broken and fixed open, then nobody deserves any mercy.

In the case of GN 365s, where first class is written on the doors and often the doors are fixed open (as the sensors are busted and would trap people inside on the stock that doesn't have the internal buttons) then the lack of stickers on the window and just a small 'this is first class' sign written by the door to the cab, is not sufficient.

Sure, each seat as an antimacassar but they're obstructed if someone is already seated.

I do think a TOC should make sure that first class IS clearly marked for the few who genuinely wouldn't know.

Agreed - in this case, it's the only working (that I know of) on the Horsham - Gatwick - Victoria route that uses 377/6s (or 7s sometimes) which are five car and with the first class at different spots in the formation, BUT the new anti-macassars are much clearer than the old ones, and Southern have finally started adding clearer external identification (yellow bands and wording). People either don't bother to look around them, don't believe it is first class owing to the poor seating or simply don't care/take their chances. This morning looked like a mixture and credit to the guard for being diligent.

Gatwick passengers seem to be persistent offenders. but this morning's crop were all English-speaking/reading (judging by their comments as they moved the standard).

 

[Starmill]

Well I am currently on an Uckfield train and that went entirely as I expected. Not only did the guard make an announcement before departure but he also made another one just after departure, as part of which he pointed out that First Class is for First Class ticket holders only. What did he do as soon as the train had departed? That's right - came to check tickets in First Class (and then in Standard). Now admittedly this train isn't full and only has 2 coaches. But yesterday afternoon I was on a TransPennine train for 50 minutes on which you would never have known there was a guard. He or she didn't make any announcements nor pass through my part of the 3 coach train, although the host did make it through with the trolley. By my reckoning you could do much worse than Southern for non-enforcement of First Class. Particularly when you consider that TransPennine's First Class would typically cost quite a bit more too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update: Maybe Deepgreen should travel on the Oxted lines more, because 2 plain clothes RPIs just boarded the train at Oxted!

 

[Deepgreen]

Update: Maybe Deepgreen should travel on the Oxted lines more, because 2 plain clothes RPIs just boarded the train at Oxted!

Actually, I have experienced a lot of RPIs recently on the Redhill route (a mixture of plain-clothed and uniformed), after a complete absence of them for a year or more. It seems as though Southern got rid of them all and re-recruited, or just didn't deploy them out of Victoria or London Bridge for a year!

When I want to go to Oxted that's definitely the route I'll choose!

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if proper enforcement might encourage more people to buy first class tickets, as I'm sure I would never consider it if I knew that first would likely be full, and even less so if it was clear that it was full of people who hadn't paid to be there either.