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common routeing point

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johnnycache

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I'm looking at Sturry to Bekesbourne

Each station has the same possible routeing points-Ashford, Ramsgate, Dover and Faversham

So they are all common routeing points

They all fail the fare check (based on current SDS and CDS)

What are the permitted routes?
 
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island

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You don't get to a fares check if stations share a routeing point. The permitted routes are the shortest route to a routeing point and the shortest route from the routeing point to the destination, without doubling back. (Plus the shortest overall route and a through train, if one exists.)
 

johnnycache

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You don't get to a fares check if stations share a routeing point. The permitted routes are the shortest route to a routeing point and the shortest route from the routeing point to the destination, without doubling back. (Plus the shortest overall route and a through train, if one exists.)

The shortest route would involve walking from Canterbury West to Canterbury East

There is no direct train

Using any of the common routeing points results in a very long route - are they permitted? Eg Sturry-Ramsgate-Faversham-Bekesbourne or Sturry-Ashford-Dover-Bekesbourne
 

yorkie

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The shortest route is the shortest route by rail.

An example I always use is Shipley (Yorks) to Halifax. The shortest route by rail is via Leeds. However it is also permitted to go via Bradford, as this is shorter than the shortest route by rail, in fact there is a cheaper ticket routed Not Leeds for that purpose.

Another example would be Watford Junction to Bedford. The shortest route by rail is via Bletchley (though you can go via MKC, due to the group station rule). The shortest route by rail is not via St Albans, however it is valid to walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans as it is shorter than the shortest route by rail and it's a recognised interchange. If someone wanted to go via St Albans, they would be better off using a combination of tickets though.
 

John @ home

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I'm looking at Sturry to Bekesbourne

Each station has the same possible routeing points-Ashford, Ramsgate, Dover and Faversham

So they are all common routeing points

They all fail the fare check (based on current SDS and CDS)

What are the permitted routes?
The NRG Instructions deal with the situation where origin and destination have more than one RP in common.
National Routeing Guide said:
Some origins and destinations have more than one common routeing point. The permitted route is the shortest of the alternatives. Once again reference should be made to any scheduled regular services and whether easements apply in Section E that would allow doubling back.
Example (c) - Bamber Bridge to Lostock. Each station has three common routeing points, Preston (21 miles) and both Blackburn and Bolton (24.5 miles). In this instance travel via Preston is the permitted route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
Using any of the common routeing points results in a very long route - are they permitted?
The "shortest route served by a regular passenger service" is the shortest route by rail.

My calculations are:
  • Sturry - Ashford - Dover - Bekesbourne = 50.25 miles
  • Sturry - Ramsgate Group - Faversham - Bekesbourne = 53 miles
  • Sturry - Ramsgate Group - Dover - Bekesbourne = 39.75 miles
(using Minster as the member of Ramsgate group giving shortest distance)

The shortest route by rail is Sturry - Ramsgate Group - Dover - Bekesbourne, which is therefore a Permitted Route. The other two routes above are both more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, so they are not Permitted Routes.

The shortest route would involve walking from Canterbury West to Canterbury East
Sturry - Canterbury West - walk - Canterbury East - Bekesbourne uses a recognised walking interchange, and is shorter than the shortest route by rail. It is therefore a Permitted Route.
 

johnnycache

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So the ticket is valid to travel Sturry Ramsgate Dover Bekesbourne (going direct between Minster and Sandwich if a train is available) for £3.50 (off-peak day single)

There must be similar cases wherever there are twons with two stations that are not rail linked

I think I'll have a look at Maidstone next!

Thanks
 
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soil

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You don't get to a fares check if stations share a routeing point. The permitted routes are the shortest route to a routeing point and the shortest route from the routeing point to the destination, without doubling back.

Not the shortest route, but direct trains to and from the common routeing point, stopping short of the routeing point if required to avoid doubling back, as per Part F of the NRG.

Bekesbourne has no direct trains to Ashford Intl, or to Ramsgate Group.

Sturry has no direct trains to Dover Priory or Faversham.

So nothing here.

(Plus the shortest overall route and a through train, if one exists.)

No through train. The shortest route can be calculated here:

http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx

and is

Sturry 0
Minster 9
Sandwich 13.75
Deal 18
Walmer 19.5
Martin Mill 22.25
Dover Priory 27.25
Kearsney 29.5
Shepherds Well 32.75
Snowdown 34.75
Aylesham 35.75
Adisham 36.75
Bekesbourne 39.75

This is Sturry - Minster - Sandwich - Dover Priory - Bekesbourne.

There are only two trains per day in each direction between Minster and Sandwich. The route via Ramsgate is more than 3 miles longer, and not permitted.
07:54 and 08:16 Minster - Sandwich
15:56 and 16:56 Sandwich - Minster

If you pick a suitable time of day, NRE will sell you one ticket for the complete journey:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/STU/BKS/030413/0740/dep?directonly&via=Deal
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/BKS/STU/030413/1307/dep?directonly&via=Deal

The ticket is therefore valid Bekesbourne - Dover Priory, Dover Priory - Sandwich, etc. It is cheaper than those tickets, but the saving is not as much as you might think.

If you wanted to do the full loop for some strange reason, and there was no Sandwich - Minster train, you'd need a ticket valid for Sandwich - Ramsgate - Minster.

Minster is in the Ramsgate routeing point.

According to NRE, a Sandwich - Minster ticket is valid via Ramsgate. There does not appear to be a relevant easement permitting this, and the NRG does not say that it is permitted, but one must only assume that the 'common routeing points rule' also permits this. Note that Sandwich - Sturry, where both stations are associated stations, as opposed to one associated station and one routeing point, is unambiguously valid via Ramsgate.


Shorter routes using a recognised walk are also permitted by the routeing engine, however recognised walks are not defined anywhere, so again this is another ambiguity....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So the ticket is valid to travel Sturry Ramsgate Dover Bekesbourne (going direct between Minster and Sandwich if a train is available) for £3.50 (off-peak day single)

You cannot go via Ramsgate, only Minster. You would need two tickets for Ramsgate.

There must be similar cases wherever there are twons with two stations that are not rail linked

The Dorking lines have similar.

I think I'll have a look at Maidstone next!

Yes, similar there.
 

John @ home

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You cannot go via Ramsgate, only Minster. You would need two tickets for Ramsgate.
I don't agree that, with a Sturry to Bekesbourne ticket and using the common routeing point rule to travel via Ramsgate Group, a passenger cannot go via Ramsgate, only via Minster. Ramsgate Group comprises Minster and Ramsgate.

I agree that travelling via Ramsgate would not be the shortest route, and would not be a distance longer than the shortest route by no more than 3 miles. But in this instance we have used the Common Routeing Points section in Step 3 of the NRG Instructions to determine that travel via Ramsgate Group is the Permitted Route. Having done that, I can see nothing in the rules to disallow the operation of the Group Stations paragraph on page 6 of those Instructions which allows travel via any station in Ramsgate Group, including doubling back, for interchange purposes only.

Therefore, in my opinion, Sturry - Minster - Ramsgate - Sandwich - Dover - Bekesbourne is a Permitted Route when using a Sturry to Bekesbourne ticket.
 

soil

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The purpose of Step 3 is not clear to me.

It talks of routeing points, but whether the intent is to create a generalised right to go via common routeing points, or merely to illustrate that the shortest route is via Preston is unclear. However F7 provides that the procedure in this same scenario is to take direct trains to the common RP without doubling back, or the shortest route plus 3 miles.

It is also not clear what is meant by 'a group' being on a permitted route. If there is a right to go via the routeing point on the shortest route, as distinct from the shortest route, then this would apply. As I do not see that there is such a right, I would say that the permitted route is not via the group, but via the station, and therefore the rule is inapplicable. However, the NRG is so poorly written that most likely you could defend hundreds of different interpretations of it in court....
 

furlong

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It is also not clear what is meant by 'a group' being on a permitted route. If there is a right to go via the routeing point on the shortest route, as distinct from the shortest route, then this would apply. As I do not see that there is such a right, I would say that the permitted route is not via the group, but via the station, and therefore the rule is inapplicable.

I'm with John @ home on this one: The Group Stations paragraph appears under 'How to use the National Routeing Guide' so is globally applicable, and consistent here with the intent stated of offering a wider choice of station facilities.

However, the NRG is so poorly written that most likely you could defend hundreds of different interpretations of it in court....

Which I'd suggest means that the most generous interpretation from the point of view of the passenger is always the correct one to use.
 
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