Company Van: Driving Track Gang To & From Site - Payment For Travel Time & Driver's Rest

[TheFishPlate]

Hi all. New here and to the industry; effectively a blue hat on track and on forum

I've had an offer of work from a recruitment business and besides trackman duties they want me as the second nominated driver. My current sponsor does not pay travel time despite the working duties/responsibility of driving a gang to and from site to yard, up to 5 hours round trip. (As of yet I don't know about the potential new company.)

I wanted to ask if anyone has worked for a rail company/agency that does pay either travel time or at least a wage uplift to the driver for the on site shift hours; do they exist?!

Secondly, driver's rest; is this a right with every company? With my current company I've seen this granted as 2 hours rest toward the end of the shift. Is this by and large standard? Have you encountered supervisor resistance to this?

Thanks for your time all.


(note to mods: I created a recent thread with this query tacked on to the end as an afterthought, but want to make this a question in its own right to hopefully garner more responses.)

 

[alex17595]

From what I gather it's pretty standard not getting paid for travel. The only time I get paid for driving is deliveries or sometimes for picking someone up (no one would agree to do it other wise.)

There was a few times where the COSS let me have an 'unofficial' drivers rest - but my company used to give the COSS the van and they had up to 8 pickups. They can hardly leave the site for drivers rest either.

 

[TheFishPlate]

From what I gather it's pretty standard not getting paid for travel. The only time I get paid for driving is deliveries or sometimes for picking someone up (no one would agree to do it other wise.)

There was a few times where the COSS let me have an 'unofficial' drivers rest - but my company used to give the COSS the van and they had up to 8 pickups. They can hardly leave the site for drivers rest either.

Cheers Alex.

So was that COSS paid at all whilst driving to the 8 locations? Or did he do it off his own back?

It's one thing driving to and from a yard, perhaps up to 5 hours and not being paid; but another doing a personal service door to door adding more time to the overall journey!

 

[CJK64]

Hi all. New here and to the industry; effectively a blue hat on track and on forum

I've had an offer of work from a recruitment business and besides trackman duties they want me as the second nominated driver. My current sponsor does not pay travel time despite the working duties/responsibility of driving a gang to and from site to yard, up to 5 hours round trip. (As of yet I don't know about the potential new company.)

I wanted to ask if anyone has worked for a rail company/agency that does pay either travel time or at least a wage uplift to the driver for the on site shift hours; do they exist?!

Secondly, driver's rest; is this a right with every company? With my current company I've seen this granted as 2 hours rest toward the end of the shift. Is this by and large standard? Have you encountered supervisor resistance to this?

Thanks for your time all.


(note to mods: I created a recent thread with this query tacked on to the end as an afterthought, but want to make this a question in its own right to hopefully garner more responses.)

Agencies tend to work differently in regard to travel time. I'm pretty sure there is a rule in place where you cant work more than 14 hours door to door. As for driving rest, this is something I have been shouting from the roof tops for many years. There is no written rule, which is ludicrous, we work to a local agreement that if you drive for more than an hour at night, that driver does not work at all and takes drivers rest.
I always encourage Supervisors to allow contract staff to take drivers rest if possible ( Not the full shift but as much as can be spared)

There should be a written rule regarding driving and i'm sure there would be if something happened.

 

[talltim]

Am I reading that wrong? You don’t get paid for travel time to site? Or is it that you don’t get paid more for doing the driving? I certainly wouldn’t be volunteering to drive and I hope the pay makes up for the unpaid time if you don’t get the travel time paid

 

[TheFishPlate]

Agencies tend to work differently in regard to travel time. I'm pretty sure there is a rule in place where you cant work more than 14 hours door to door. As for driving rest, this is something I have been shouting from the roof tops for many years. There is no written rule, which is ludicrous, we work to a local agreement that if you drive for more than an hour at night, that driver does not work at all and takes drivers rest.
I always encourage Supervisors to allow contract staff to take drivers rest if possible ( Not the full shift but as much as can be spared)

There should be a written rule regarding driving and i'm sure there would be if something happened.

Thanks CJK64.

Yes I can absolutely imagine something would finally be done officially should something happen. After all Network Rail's "Everyone home safe every day" motto is absolutely at risk.

I was recently on a track relay following the tamper, boxing in, when our driver worked the full shift ballast bashing, then drove 2.5 hours home (having already driven 2.5 hours there).

Yes, my training purported the 14 hours door to door...in practice though....!

Your local agreement is astonishing to me! I hear stories of supervisors taking issue with drivers caught in their van taking rest, animatedly so.

 

[TheFishPlate]

Am I reading that wrong? You don’t get paid for travel time to site? Or is it that you don’t get paid more for doing the driving? I certainly wouldn’t be volunteering to drive and I hope the pay makes up for the unpaid time if you don’t get the travel time paid

Hi Tim. Thanks for the response.

You are reading it correct! No travel time; driving 5 hours round trip at times; and no increase in rate for the driver for the actual shift times either.

As for the rate....let's just say that after the umbrella company deductions; employer's national insurance and margin and 12.07% deduction to satisfy holiday pay...minimum wage is barely achievable.

 

[CJK64]

Thanks CJK64.

Yes I can absolutely imagine something would finally be done officially should something happen. After all Network Rail's "Everyone home safe every day" motto is absolutely at risk.

I was recently on a track relay following the tamper, boxing in, when our driver worked the full shift ballast bashing, then drove 2.5 hours home (having already driven 2.5 hours there).

Yes, my training purported the 14 hours door to door...in practice though....!

Your local agreement is astonishing to me! I hear stories of supervisors taking issue with drivers caught in their van taking rest, animatedly so.

Working a full shift with 2.5hr drive either side is astonishing and extremely irresponsible. I would like to think that someone on site from NWR would have close called that as it’s a breach of safety.
If you are being asked and expected to go over the 14hr door to door then your company should raise it as again, it’s breaking all fatigue laws.
It really irks me when I hear stories of LOSC staff being mistreated, as to me, you are a vital resource to NWR and should be treated exactly the same as our own staff.
Fatigue is a big thing at NWR and new legislation is being rolled out in 2020 which will see our staff being able to work even less hours.
At present we already have to keep staff under 60 hours if possible and fill out fatigue forms and explain if they do go over 60, the same should apply to your staff.

 

[TheFishPlate]

Working a full shift with 2.5hr drive either side is astonishing and extremely irresponsible. I would like to think that someone on site from NWR would have close called that as it’s a breach of safety.
If you are being asked and expected to go over the 14hr door to door then your company should raise it as again, it’s breaking all fatigue laws.
It really irks me when I hear stories of LOSC staff being mistreated, as to me, you are a vital resource to NWR and should be treated exactly the same as our own staff.
Fatigue is a big thing at NWR and new legislation is being rolled out in 2020 which will see our staff being able to work even less hours.
At present we already have to keep staff under 60 hours if possible and fill out fatigue forms and explain if they do go over 60, the same should apply to your staff.

I think there's a few elements to this where the company work around it.

For one the sat nav from yard to site is just shy of two hours. This is ignoring traffic on the busy weekend nights as we arrive. Really, with traffic and a stop off for toilet break/refreshments it can be 2.5 hours.

Secondly, despite the shift being 23:00 to 09:00, we only get the worksite from the ES around 1:00, sometimes later, and have to give back the line pre 6:00.

Yard to yard is very doable; door to door is definitely not 14 hours on occasion. I think the reliance upon finishing early typically ensures the 14 hour rule in actuality, but on paper as per the shift planning...it's clearly not doable. And out of 10 shifts so far I've only had the 'are you travelling back home...' question asked maybe 3 times. So the checks aren't in place, as usually it's our LOSC team, the client supervisor, no sac cabin and no NWR presence.

Yes the 60 hour ruling and fatigue forms if working extra have been explained to me during training. So on paper, we're following the book.


Back to the topic of driving the gang unpaid... overall I can't believe that the industry can typically get away with this. Even if the HMRC rules were to dictate that the worksite is a permanent place of work, companies shouldn't class it as standard commuting. It's one (arguable) thing to say that the gang in the back don't get paid for travel, an absolute other to deny the driver payment for that time.

Yet I feel that most drivers realise if they change their mind about driving then they'll end up with less shifts.

 

[alex17595]

Cheers Alex.

So was that COSS paid at all whilst driving to the 8 locations? Or did he do it off his own back?

It's one thing driving to and from a yard, perhaps up to 5 hours and not being paid; but another doing a personal service door to door adding more time to the overall journey!

The COSS picked everyone up and usually dropped them off at the end of the shift, at home not a yard. Its very frustrating when they book you on a 9hr shift because you have 5 hours round trip of driving.

Yet I feel that most drivers realise if they change their mind about driving then they'll end up with less shifts.

This is basically what it comes down to.

 

[CJK64]

I think there's a few elements to this where the company work around it.

For one the sat nav from yard to site is just shy of two hours. This is ignoring traffic on the busy weekend nights as we arrive. Really, with traffic and a stop off for toilet break/refreshments it can be 2.5 hours.

Secondly, despite the shift being 23:00 to 09:00, we only get the worksite from the ES around 1:00, sometimes later, and have to give back the line pre 6:00.

Yard to yard is very doable; door to door is definitely not 14 hours on occasion. I think the reliance upon finishing early typically ensures the 14 hour rule in actuality, but on paper as per the shift planning...it's clearly not doable. And out of 10 shifts so far I've only had the 'are you travelling back home...' question asked maybe 3 times. So the checks aren't in place, as usually it's our LOSC team, the client supervisor, no sac cabin and no NWR presence.

Yes the 60 hour ruling and fatigue forms if working extra have been explained to me during training. So on paper, we're following the book.


Back to the topic of driving the gang unpaid... overall I can't believe that the industry can typically get away with this. Even if the HMRC rules were to dictate that the worksite is a permanent place of work, companies shouldn't class it as standard commuting. It's one (arguable) thing to say that the gang in the back don't get paid for travel, an absolute other to deny the driver payment for that time.

Yet I feel that most drivers realise if they change their mind about driving then they'll end up with less shifts.

I don’t disagree with anything you are saying but most companies build into the job description that you must be able to drive company vehicles, That way it’s already part of your duties.
There are laws in place about getting payment for driving certain vehicles (9 seats or more) as you Would require a PSV licence.

 

[TheFishPlate]

I don’t disagree with anything you are saying but most companies build into the job description that you must be able to drive company vehicles, That way it’s already part of your duties.
There are laws in place about getting payment for driving certain vehicles (9 seats or more) as you Would require a PSV licence.

Hi CJK, and thanks for responding again.

It seems there would be two job descriptions/staff handbooks then; one for non drivers and one for drivers. Can it be classed as 'standard' in a job description if there's one rule for one and one for another?

Interesting you mention that about the 9 seater. For the first time on shift the other day I saw a 9 seater. I know the driver did not get paid any extra for travel time.

 

[CJK64]

Hi Fishplate,

Yes being a driver can be classed as standard. At NWR, when you apply for a job, it goes through a sifting process, first sift is driving, if you can’t drive you don’t go through to the next sift unless you are an apprentice. It is built in to your job descriptions.

Your driver in the 9 seater would not be allowed to get paid for driving as he would need a public service vehicle licence.

 

[TheFishPlate]

Hi Fishplate,

Yes being a driver can be classed as standard. At NWR, when you apply for a job, it goes through a sifting process, first shift is driving, if you can’t drive you don’t go through to the next shift., unless you are an apprentice. It is built in to your job descriptions.

Your driver in the 9 seater would not be allowed to get paid for driving as he would need a public service vehicle licence.

Ah. Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated.

Lots to learn from here on in!

 

[alex17595]

Hi Fishplate,

Yes being a driver can be classed as standard. At NWR, when you apply for a job, it goes through a sifting process, first sift is driving, if you can’t drive you don’t go through to the next sift unless you are an apprentice. It is built in to your job descriptions.

Your driver in the 9 seater would not be allowed to get paid for driving as he would need a public service vehicle licence.

You only need a PSV for 9 or more passengers, excluding the driver. I have driven the minibus on site a few times and all you need is a normal license for that size van.

 

[CJK64]

You only need a PSV for 9 or more passengers, excluding the driver. I have driven the minibus on site a few times and all you need is a normal license for that size van.

Yes I agree but as i said, if you gain payment you need a PSV, That's why it is included as part of everyday duties.

 

[alex17595]

Yes I agree but as i said, if you gain payment you need a PSV, That's why it is included as part of everyday duties.

I can only find reference to the '9 passengers or more' or 'operate a smaller vehicle carrying passengers and charging separate fares for the journey' neither of which apply to the 9 seater vans.

 

[CJK64]

I can only find reference to the '9 passengers or more' or 'operate a smaller vehicle carrying passengers and charging separate fares for the journey' neither of which apply to the 9 seater vans.

Even if there are less passengers you still can't gain payment for driving without the correct licence.

 

[CJK64]

https://www.gov.uk/psv-operator-licences

 

[alex17595]

I have ready through the page like 5 times and the only reference I can find is about seperate fares.


You can drive up to a 16 seater on a car license if the following conditions are met:

If the minibus is not for ‘hire or reward’
You might be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers (it’s not for ‘hire or reward’).

Conditions you must meet
You can drive a minibus within the UK as long as the following conditions apply:

• you’re 21 or older
• you’ve had your driving licence for at least 2 years
• you meet the ‘Group 2’ medical standards if you’re over 70 - check with your GP if you’re not sure you meet the standards
• you’re driving on a voluntary basis and the minibus is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body
• the maximum weight of the minibus is not more than 3.5 tonnes - or 4.25 tonnes including specialist equipment for disabled passengers, for example a wheelchair ramp
• you’re not towing a trailer

 

[CJK64]

I have ready through the page like 5 times and the only reference I can find is about seperate fares.


You can drive up to a 16 seater on a car license if the following conditions are met:

Arghhhh.. YES YOU CAN DRIVE UP TO A 16 SEATER ON A NORMAL CAR LICENCE.. BUT AS A COMPANY YOU CANNOT PAY ANY PERSON FOR DRIVING AND DRIVING ALONE WITHOUT A PSV. THE COMPANY CAN ASK STAFF TO DRIVE AS PART OF THEIR ROLE.

 

[alex17595]

It doesn't apply to a 9 seater which is what the original question was about.

 

[CJK64]

No it wasn't. 9 seaters, 8 seaters 2 seaters or 30 seaters were never mentioned.

The original poster asked - "I wanted to ask if anyone has worked for a rail company/agency that does pay either travel time or at least a wage uplift to the driver for the on site shift hours; do they exist?!"

And my answer was no not unless you hold a PSV..

 

[alex17595]

Your driver in the 9 seater would not be allowed to get paid for driving as he would need a public service vehicle licence.

And my answer was no not unless you hold a PSV..

The fact you can get paid does depend on the number of seats. It's not very often you will encounter more than 9 seats on the railway anyway.

It's not they can't pay you for driving, it's that they won't because they can save a few quid.

 

[CJK64]

The fact you can get paid does depend on the number of seats. It's not very often you will encounter more than 9 seats on the railway anyway.

It's not they can't pay you for driving, it's that they won't because they can save a few quid.

This has to be a wind up surely????

YES IT IS THAT THEY CAN'T PAY YOU..THAT IS THE ONLY REASON..

 

[CJK64]

Right, this is from the government website.. The number of passengers doesn't matter..You cannot be paid extra for driving unless you have a PSV..

 

[Rockhopper]

Neither of those clauses would apply for driving men to a worksite. Hire or reward means you are carrying paying passengers like a bus or taxi.

 

[CJK64]

Neither of those clauses would apply for driving men to a worksite. Hire or reward means you are carrying paying passengers like a bus or taxi.

No it doesn't, you are charging your company for driving people which then becomes a fare or reward..Drive men to a worksite all you like but don't ask for EXTRA payment.

Go and tell your boss tomorrow that you want an additional £10 for driving staff to and from the worksite and see what his answer will be.. He may well pay you but just pray he doesn't declare it and get audited.

 

[alex17595]

Right, this is from the government website.. The number of passengers doesn't matter..You cannot be paid extra for driving unless you have a PSV..


View attachment 65597

The number of passengers DOES matter. It's right there in the screenshot

Say your driving a Van to work, on the way you pick up 8 people and you get paid for it.

Are you operating a a vehicle for hire or reward? Yes Can this vehicle carry 9 or more passengers NO - The first statement doesn't apply.
Are you operating a smaller vehicle ? Yes AND charging seperate fares? NO

 

[CJK64]

Oh my....Perhaps try reading it 6 times.

Are you charging extra fares?? yes you are you're asking your company for more money for driving these people..
Why do you think NWR and other companies makes driving part of their job description?