Competition 320 :: Voting

[ladysue]

Like some of the others I hope you will show us your original photo Matt. It probably would have won without any editing.I didnt know who had entered the photo I was querying, and certainly didnt know what editing had been done.I was just asking. Didnt mean to stir up a hornets nest.However its good to discuss different approaches to the competition and to have it confirmed what is allowed and what is not.

There are not just 3 types of people on here but many individuals who all contribute to the forum in their own way.Vive la difference

 

[David]

Having looked at the photo in question, then reading the discussion, I'm surprised Matt did have his photo volunteraly disqualified. From what I've read on here, and looking at Matt's website, it is apparent he does have a high quality camera, and more importantly, he knows how to use it.

With that in mind I think the "It's too good, so it must be a heavily edited photo" brigade should hang their heads in shame for upsetting a very good photographer.

 

[theblackwatch]

With that in mind I think the "It's too good, so it must be a heavily edited photo" brigade should hang their heads in shame for upsetting a very good photographer.

Are you saying everyone should be allowed to break the rules, or just a 'very good photographer'?

 

[David]

I shall demonstrate some basics on a different thread. Having read the rules, I can confirm I did no editing other than the allowed processing and the import from RAW which has to be done. So my mouth got me disqualified for revealing my photo I mean no ill to the moderators or any of the other entries to this competition, but it seems that the photographers here are split in two. There are those who will think, pre plan and do their best to capture a great moment (as I feel I try) and there are the people who do not pursue it as a serious hobby but like to record events. Sadly there are the people who span between the two and seem to resent the ones who try. I hope I've got this wrong, but some of the stuff that followed lady_sue's original comments seemed to confirm this

Are you saying everyone should be allowed to break the rules, or just a 'very good photographer'?

If you read Matt's post above, he says he only did the permitted editing to the photo, but no, I don't think photos that break the rules should be allowed.

 

[dan_atki]

I'm surprised Matt did have his photo volunteraly disqualified.

As you've probably guessed by now, the DMU photo is mine. I can confirm it is processed so remove it, ban me for my rant or whatever for my sins.

The basis for the disqualification was that post. At that point I believed mumrar to have read the competition rules and saw he was in the wrong so was admitting his mistake.

If it was a simple 'such and such photo is mine' then the post would be edited and no more made of the matter.

When I got back to the topic later and saw

Having read the rules, I can confirm I did no editing other than the allowed processing and the import from RAW which has to be done. So my mouth got me disqualified for revealing my photo

how do you think I for one felt having made, in hindsight, a rather heavy handed decision? I couldn't simply un-disqualify the photo - that would cause problems with the integrity of the competition, amongst other things (a couple of hours of votes with people not voting for 7, for instance).

The general feeling in this topic is that people want to learn how to achieve effects such as those mumrar has created, rather than despise him for using them. Of course, life is one big learning curve.

Based on the mini-tutorial that mumrar says he is going to do, a decision may be taken to un-ban him from entering 321 if 07 is shown not to be overly processed before the weekend. Given the turnout of events, I'm afraid it's the best (and all) I can do.

 

[theblackwatch]

If you read Matt's post above, he says he only did the permitted editing to the photo, but no, I don't think photos that break the rules should be allowed.

And if you read another post, he says...

Whilst I now know I've broken a rule

 

[mumrar]

dan_atki I feel no bad about the disqualification and shall be providing a tutorial later today, now I've got the specific backup disc. When I mentioned having broken a rule I was referring to revealing my identity as the photographer, so althoguh I'm probably guilty for starting this I don't want to see it turned in to a major waffle fest, but some good healthy discussion is of course neevr a bad thing. I'll see you next when I post the tutorial, and of course hopefully in comp 321, bye for now.

 

[almark]

Once again i forgot to enter,doh!!!


I have to say this week has provided some very poor entries,i can't see what anyone would see in most of them,but oh well.

I have decided to go for 4 because of its historical value and the content of the photo not because it is a fantastic shot,although i would still say its the best of them.

 

[37372]

Whilst I admit there aren't many exciting photo's this week, I still wouldn't call them "poor".
Not all of us have top-of-the-range cameras with fancy settings and a 3 foot long lens, nor can all of us get to photogenic locations and phot only when the sun is out. I for know for a fact those apply to me at least.

Just my two pence worth

 

[mumrar]

Whilst I admit there aren't many exciting photo's this week, I still wouldn't call them "poor".
Not all of us have top-of-the-range cameras with fancy settings and a 3 foot long lens, nor can all of us get to photogenic locations and phot only when the sun is out. I for know for a fact those apply to me at least.

I understand what you say all except for the camera comment. If you stuck me in a sudio with a gorgeous model and a £6k camera I bet a pro portrait photographer would still outshoot my effort with a £150 compact. It's not all about the camera and lens, and as regards the 3ft lens comment, telephoto lenses are not really suited to much railway photographs so not many people use them. My disqualified entry was took with a £39 non zooming lens!

 

[dan_atki]

mumrar, many thanks for posting the tutorial - I'm sure many people will find it useful!

Based on that I'd like to apologise for the madness this week that has consequently got a valid entry disqualified. As such you are free to enter competition 321 if you so wish .

As for the tutorial you have posted, would you mind if, on Sunday after the voting is over, that post (and any replies) are pulled from this thread and made into a sticky? It would serve for reference and avoid it falling to the bottom of the heap, showing others how their entries may be edited within the rules of the competition.

 

[mumrar]

Interesting isn't it? So many critics and detractors, yet when I show it's all above board and go to the time and effort of a tutorial there's only one response excluding moderators after 24 hours! I will think long and hard before deciding to enter 321 and any future POTWs.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't think there's need for a mass exodus and it's no one comment in particular. We need a broad range of entries and opinions to keep a flavour in the competition, I just wasn't over keen on what I probably over-reacted to as a witch hunt.

I know this is a little bit late in the conversation and may be seen as brown nosing but honestly I whole heartedly agree with you Mumrar and honestly I think we should either have..........

1.A vote on the idea of no major editing.
2.Or a second competition which allows editing and has no particular theme each week.

I doubt anyone is going to agree with me but it's worth a try as I think editing photos can have some wonderful results and it doesn't have to be large scale just a few touch ups to create that wonderful shot you have always wanted.

 

[eezypeazy]

You're right, Phoenix, no-one's going to agree with you:

1. This is not a democracy. It's a forum. Earlier this year, we debated the issue of photo editing, and the powers that be agreed that that what might be described as "normal processing" (ie., cropping, saturation, brightness, contrast, etc) is acceptable, whereas removing unwanted items from photographs (such as unsightly overhead or, heaven forbid, passengers) is not.

2. A second competition, allowing editing, and without a particular theme, would be neither a photo competition nor, necessarily, a railway photo competition.


A "just for fun" competition such as this relies on the honesty and integrity of those participating. Let's leave it that way.

Regards

eezypeazy

 

[dan_atki]

1. This is not a democracy. It's a forum. Earlier this year, we debated the issue of photo editing, and the powers that be agreed that that what might be described as "normal processing" (ie., cropping, saturation, brightness, contrast, etc) is acceptable, whereas removing unwanted items from photographs (such as unsightly overhead or, heaven forbid, passengers) is not.

Just to add to this, the 'powers that be' are re-discussing what was discussed three months ago (link above) to see how the competition can be moved forward. I, for one, don't want a repeat of this week's occurrances.

A "just for fun" competition such as this relies on the honesty and integrity of those participating. Let's leave it that way.

And is something we hoped would happen. When we get such critique of images as this week it shows that not everyone has the same faith. That's human nature for you.

 

[Phoenix]

You're right, Phoenix, no-one's going to agree with you:

1. This is not a democracy. It's a forum. Earlier this year, we debated the issue of photo editing, and the powers that be agreed that that what might be described as "normal processing" (ie., cropping, saturation, brightness, contrast, etc) is acceptable, whereas removing unwanted items from photographs (such as unsightly overhead or, heaven forbid, passengers) is not.

2. A second competition, allowing editing, and without a particular theme, would be neither a photo competition nor, necessarily, a railway photo competition.


A "just for fun" competition such as this relies on the honesty and integrity of those participating. Let's leave it that way.

Regards

eezypeazy

No offence but that is your opinion and that is why I would like a vote because people say they don't want editing but yet that is one out of many.
And lets be honest "honesty and integrity" have nothing to do with it because at the end of the day it is down to skill and passion.
I do like the majority of photos in the competition but i feel rather than people saying what is and isnt allowed maybe they should step up the game because lets face neither life or photoography is fair.

It may be abit of fun and somthing to look forward to but a few of us out there do take photography seriously (not saying everyone else doesn't).

Also to finally add and I don't mean to sounds nasty but if you keep pushing people will stop entering the competition.

 

[Jordy]

Quite simply we want the competition to be about good photos, not good editing. Understandably some editing such as cropping (or processing from RAW) is necessary but we don't really want "Photoshop of the week", this is about photography not computer skills

However, we are reviewing things and will let everyone know as soon as possible. Apologies to anyone who feels isolated or unfairly treated by rules or disagreements, I try to keep the competition as friendly as possible but there are so many conflicting views that its hard to do so. As I say, we're working on it and i'll get back to you as soon as I can

Cheers

Jordy

 

[Phoenix]

Quite simply we want the competition to be about good photos, not good editing. Understandably some editing such as cropping (or processing from RAW) is necessary but we don't really want "Photoshop of the week", this is about photography not computer skills

However, we are reviewing things and will let everyone know as soon as possible. Apologies to anyone who feels isolated or unfairly treated by rules or disagreements, I try to keep the competition as friendly as possible but there are so many conflicting views that its hard to do so. As I say, we're working on it and i'll get back to you as soon as I can

Cheers

Jordy

Honestly I feel the Moderation on this topic has been fair and right but my problem is the way one or two people have been as sometimes when I look at previous posts I despair as It has become slightly silly.

I understand that completely changing a photo isn't correct when entering a competition but for instance I don't see why you cannot unstitch a few objects as this is something a few photographers out there take into consideration when taking the shot in the first place.

Personally I feel that higher amount of editing should be allowed as long as we state this and those who believe it to be wrong would simply not vote as this forums competition is based upon the fact "If you don't like it don't vote for it".

 

[Jordy]

Thanks for your input, will consider it

 

[Swiss Toni]

Why not have your competition without the voting comments, if you like the image vote for it, end of.
No one wants to read inane and factually incorrect comments anyway.

I took the time to learn how to edit digital photos because I wanted to improve my results,
so when I see better shots than mine I go out of my way to find out why they're better and incorporate that knowledge.

Or of course I could just criticise them for using their "black satanic arts" but where would that get me?

 

[90019]

Why not have your competition without the voting comments, if you like the image vote for it, end of.
No one wants to read inane and factually incorrect comments anyway.

You may not, but some of us find it interesting to find out about the photo we're looking at.

I took the time to learn how to edit digital photos because I wanted to improve my results,
so when I see better shots than mine I go out of my way to find out why they're better and incorporate that knowledge.

But then what's the point in having a competiton if there's no competition in it?
Why bother having a photo competiton if it just becomes an editing competiton between a few people, meaning that those who don't edit theirs don't get a look in at all?


Personally, i think it should just be a competition of photographic skills; who can go out and get the best photo, with the only editing allowed being cropping. That way, it's actually a photo competition, rather than a competition to see who can make theirs look best on a computer.

 

[Daimler]

Personally, i think it should just be a competition of photographic skills; who can go out and get the best photo, with the only editing allowed being cropping. That way, it's actually a photo competition, rather than a competition to see who can make theirs look best on a computer.

Perhaps, but don't you think that editing skills are an integral part of photographic skills - the overall aim being to produce the most satisfying image possible (while retaining the factual integrity of the image). In that respect, I would argue that working hard at the post-processing side of photography is at least as important as the initial photo-taking - the initial image being a kind of 'work in progress' to be fashioned and refined into a finished product.

I don't take many photos at all, and those that I do take are generally, rubbish, so I can't really speak 'first hand' here. But that's how it seems to me...

 

[mumrar]

Perhaps, but don't you think that editing skills are an integral part of photographic skills - the overall aim being to produce the most satisfying image possible (while retaining the factual integrity of the image). In that respect, I would argue that working hard at the post-processing side of photography is at least as important as the initial photo-taking - the initial image being a kind of 'work in progress' to be fashioned and refined into a finished product.

I don't take many photos at all, and those that I do take are generally, rubbish, so I can't really speak 'first hand' here. But that's how it seems to me...

That's decent way of explaining it, in the same way that film was also about post production too. Where do you think the names 'dodge' and 'burn' come from on the Photoshop tools? It's the same as the darkroom

 

[Phoenix]

You may not, but some of us find it interesting to find out about the photo we're looking at.



But then what's the point in having a competiton if there's no competition in it?
Why bother having a photo competiton if it just becomes an editing competiton between a few people, meaning that those who don't edit theirs don't get a look in at all?


Personally, i think it should just be a competition of photographic skills; who can go out and get the best photo, with the only editing allowed being cropping. That way, it's actually a photo competition, rather than a competition to see who can make theirs look best on a computer.

My problem with your thoughts is that you need to take a few things into consideration for example dark evenings when the shots are way too dark so your saying we have to just dispose of that shot?

Like my previous example there are many others.

I personally respect if people choose not to edit there shots as photography is a hobby with a broad set of views which as can be seen in this case often clash.

To all non-editors out I suggest that you back the idea of two separate competitions as I assure you this problem will come back and back again as we do not take the time we do with our photos just so that people who fundamentally spend less time on their shots can make us out to be the bad guys and before I get accused of being hot headed I am sure that I can get a good amount of people to agree with this.

So all I say is compromise.

 

[90019]

My problem with your thoughts is that you need to take a few things into consideration for example dark evenings when the shots are way too dark so your saying we have to just dispose of that shot?

No, you take this into account when taking the photo in the first place.

To all non-editors out I suggest that you back the idea of two separate competitions as I assure you this problem will come back and back again as we do not take the time we do with our photos just so that people who fundamentally spend less time on their shots can make us out to be the bad guys and before I get accused of being hot headed I am sure that I can get a good amount of people to agree with this.

I think two competitons is a good idea, one for editing, one for no editing.

 

[Phoenix]

I think two competitons is a good idea, one for editing, one for no editing.

Honestly I feel at this moment in time this is a good mutual way of settling everyone's differences on this subject so Ill let the Mod team make the decision
based upon how everyone feels on the subject.

 

[Jordy]

It is a very difficult rule to define and I agree with Daimler, however the general consensus is that editing should not be allowed.

However as I said, we're looking into it, so can we please get back to the voting until an announcement can be made

Sorry for the inconvenience and I hope no one is put off by this!

Cheers

Jordy

 

[andrewmay]

I hope no one is put off by this!

I know I am and obviously plenty of others are too.

Editing is an integral part of photography and I've spent alot of my time learning how to take a photo and make it something special, so being told that its cheating is pretty annoying. Can we please get a seperate competition running to stop all this argument. Thats all it's gonna take.

 

[GB]

I dont think anyone has claimed editing is "cheating", more that it is probably not within the spirit of this competition.

I do agree with the two competitions suggestion though.

 

[Richmond]

Just a small point, enter any "Photo" competition where a prize is to be won then edited photographs are not allowed. The competition ceases to be a photography competition when editing, apart from RAW processing, is entered into the mix.
True genius and pro photographers will move position to capture a photograph rather than edit things out of the image that were in way.
Maybe we should have a "Picture of the week" competition to run along side the main competition with the same theme but allowing the editors to show off their skills. Murmars' photograph just shows what can be achieved when you think about the capture in the first place, good location, good composition, right conditions and minimal processing after.