Competition heats up between Transdev and Connexions

[Tetchytyke]

The directors of Blazefield at the time have long since moved on, but that doesn’t appear to have made any real difference.

Whilst that is very true, Alex Hornby has come in and stoked it all up again.

I agree with @TheGrandWazoo that both sides are as bad as each other. But Hornby has form with this sort of muck-stirring, as we saw during his time at TrentBarton and the "bus war" with YourBus.

In fact that was remarkably similar, with Scott Dunn's YourBus being the small but gobby upstart, growing out of tendered contracts. Hornby then repeatedly abusing his monopoly position to run them off the road with some very dubious practices, all the while bleating about how he behaved with integrity and it was everyone else who were just jealous of his amazing talent.

In terms of business ethics, I'd probably put Hornby below Souter!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In terms of business ethics, I'd probably put Hornby below Souter!

Nowhere near. If you ignore Darlington (as Stagecoach merely administered the final blow whilst United had been kicking seven shades out of DTC for 18 months), there are plenty of other examples far, far worse... Catch-A-Bus in South Shields. Scotbus on the Black Isle, Moffat & Williamson in Fife, Lancaster City Transport, Preston Bus.... Stagecoach were investigated 20 times between 1986 and 1995 by the Office of Fair Trading.

Alex Hornby loves the limelight, and I personally find that rather grating. However, he's nowhere near Souter, in so many ways.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Stagecoach were investigated 20 times between 1986 and 1995 by the Office of Fair Trading.

When you put it like that

(Shows how toothless the OFT/Competition Commission were, doesn't it?)

 

[RustySpoons]

One thing I've noticed AH does quite often on Twitter is let the Transdev fan boys who think Transdev and AH can do no wrong step in and fight 'battles' on his behalf. He'll selectively like Tweets that are pro-Transdev or derogatory about other operators.

I nearly got lynched a few years back for pointing out to someone that it's unlikely Transdev will invest in a brand new high quality luxury bus for an irregular short town service tender they inherited and that a basic low floor Dart would do the job. I didn't know what I was talking about, Transdev are 'amazing' for a reason, they'll invest in the route and put other local operators to shame... all from the hardcore Transdev fans who were quick to offer up abuse and tell me how wrong I was yet offered nothing constructive, yet AH and his management team at the time seemed to like all those tweets.

As it goes the route was mainly operated by a basic Dart MPD in another depots defunct livery, and they only ran it for about 12 months. But what did I know?

 

[robertclark125]

When you put it like that

(Shows how toothless the OFT/Competition Commission were, doesn't it?)

Well with regards to Moffat and Williamson, stagecoach were put on restricted covenants until summer 1996. But after Moffat's withdrew most of their services in summer 1994, stagecoach were released from the covenants.

 

[Stan Drews]

He'll selectively like Tweets that are pro-Transdev or derogatory about other operators.

If you replace Transdev in that statement with your favourite sporting team, or anything else you feel strongly about, doesn’t virtually everyone do that on Twitter ...and every other social media platform?
How many likes is kinda the whole basis of it!!

 

[SCH117X]

I recall when AH announced his departure from Wellglade he got a tweet from Temple stating they were enemies now which hardly would have put things in a good footing. I agree with the comment that the union flag etc branding is like patriotism bordering on xenophobia - it would be better to spend less on vinyls and buy another tin of green paint for the plain white vehicles.

 

[RustySpoons]

If you replace Transdev in that statement with your favourite sporting team, or anything else you feel strongly about, doesn’t virtually everyone do that on Twitter ...and every other social media platform?
How many likes is kinda the whole basis of it!!

Kind of. You just wouldn't expect a CEO to like aggressive tweets that are insulting someone else who is actually just pointing out the obvious.

 

[Alexbus12]

Kind of. You just wouldn't expect a CEO to like aggressive tweets that are insulting someone else who is actually just pointing out the obvious.

Or block people for the slightest bit of criticism Like when he used someones photo without their permission and he blocked them when they asked him to take it down....

 

[Swimbar]

I agree with the comment that the union flag etc branding is like patriotism bordering on xenophobia - it would be better to spend less on vinyls and buy another tin of green paint for the plain white vehicles.

No different to Transdev using vehicles on School Services in Harrogate, still in the livery of its sister companies, without taking off the vinyls.
We have voted to leave the EU so the more Union Flags the better! Nothing wrong with patriotism.

 

[RustySpoons]

Or block people for the slightest bit of criticism Like when he used someones photo without their permission and he blocked them when they asked him to take it down....

Was that the picture of the E400MMC? I remember that at the time and thinking it was out of order. No acknowledgement of the original tweet from the photo owner, but responses and likes on the offensive tweets from everyone else directed towards them.

 

[Alexbus12]

Was that the picture of the E400MMC? I remember that at the time and thinking it was out of order. No acknowledgement of the original tweet from the photo owner, but responses and likes on the offensive tweets from everyone else directed towards them.

Yup. I think it's still up too. The person who had taken the photo created another account to tell them to remove it, and surprised surprise, he blocked that too...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Without wishing to review the pantheon of Alex Hornby's twitter timeline, there is a line. If someone objects to an image being used and is then blocked or castigated, then AH is wrong. I also, FWIW, find some of the tweets that people highlight as cloying (here's ME in front of MY amazing staff). Now here comes the slightly subjective bit.... there are people who have genuine queries and complaints but whilst those should be going to Transdev rather than AH, they should still be handled professionally, However, if it's people who are just trolling then, irrespective of the severity, I'm not surprised they get blocked.

However, despite all of that, it still does not get away from the ridiculous partisan views that have been displayed by people on both sides of the divide. Transdev are far from perfect but the opprobrium that was displayed about the generator, as an example, was stupid, nothing else. Are they amazing.... well no. That's marketing speak...in the same way as my Arriva Sapphire didn't exactly sparkle when you know it's a refurbished 5 year old e400. However, should operators not be trying to sell their business and promote themselves? Or demurely hide away, fanning themselves demurely?

I'd sooner an operator try and be good, even if they do get it wrong on occasions. CityZap Mcr was a daft idea and I said so then and now. Red4 wasn't a bad idea but the execution wasn't how I'd do it, FWIW. We see the odd duff livery and rebrand, and we all have our opinions on branding anyway, but some of the views are so jaundiced that they beggar belief.

No different to Transdev using vehicles on School Services in Harrogate, still in the livery of its sister companies, without taking off the vinyls.
We have voted to leave the EU so the more Union Flags the better! Nothing wrong with patriotism.

I think the point is that rather than spending money on union jacks in some slightly puerile exercise, spend it on something more important.

 

[Swimbar]

I think the point is that rather than spending money on union jacks in some slightly puerile exercise, spend it on something more important.

I think the whole vinyl situation is a mess.
Operators are happy to stick vynls all over buses but presumably their is no budget/appetite to take them off.
Therefore there are Transdev vehicles running round in all areas with vynls still on from previous use e.g. School buses in Harrogate advertising WY Metro school service provision but not actually being used within the WY Metro area and Connexions Double Deckers still carrying adverts for shops in Nottingham after moving north some years ago.
Do correct vynls actually increase patronidge that much to justify their cost in the first place.?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the whole vinyl situation is a mess.
Operators are happy to stick vynls all over buses but presumably their is no budget/appetite to take them off.
Therefore there are Transdev vehicles running round in all areas with vynls still on from previous use e.g. School buses in Harrogate advertising WY Metro school service provision but not actually being used within the WY Metro area and Connexions Double Deckers still carrying adverts for shops in Nottingham after moving north some years ago.
Do correct vynls actually increase patronidge that much to justify their cost in the first place.?

Is there a simple answer....?

The real answer is no. Not in themselves.

I remember in the early days of Arriva, there was a mad rush to slap a vinyl onto any service to brand it - like this https://www.flickr.com/photos/walsa...S4q-qYqRxW-toPtCM-8FNUmA-qm6NKq-icM7EV-8Dxg6Z

So does that mean that branding doesn't work? Well if that were the case, you wouldn't have brand awareness that pervades our every pore. We are all taken in by marketing, whether we believe that we aren't or otherwise. However, it is a whole package of measures that sit in and around the product and the product has to be right. In terms of buses, that product is about going to the right place at the right time with the level of reliability and convenience that makes it justifiable.

Good marketing won't save an inherently weak product - see CityZap Mcr, but it will help a good product.

 

[duncombec]

The stand-out item for me in all this is to ask how it is that Transdev, in their various forms, can have what appears to be a harmonious relationship in all the areas they serve, none of which they really have to themselves as many big groups do, except Harrogate? Are Transdev staff there so renegade? Or is it the competitor who is the issue? What came first, the chicken or the egg?

However, many of Connexions arguments seem to be rather circular in their nature: why would "the other operator" want to consider a joint ticketing arrangement with you (for example), when in another post you are denigrating them as foreign-owned invaders who steal your marketing ideas (that look nothing alike).

It's all a little childish, really...

 

[Stan Drews]

The stand-out item for me in all this is to ask how it is that Transdev, in their various forms, can have what appears to be a harmonious relationship in all the areas they serve, none of which they really have to themselves as many big groups do, except Harrogate? Are Transdev staff their so renegade? Or is it the competitor who is the issue?

It's all a little childish, really...

I recall hearing that the owners of York Pullman and Reliance didn’t have much time for the owner of Connexions, so you may be right?

 

[Swimbar]

I recall hearing that the owners of York Pullman and Reliance didn’t have much time for the owner of Connexions, so you may be right?

It seems rife in the industry - Proctors of Leeming created York City Coaches to upset York Pullman?

 

[Ant158]

The stand-out item for me in all this is to ask how it is that Transdev, in their various forms, can have what appears to be a harmonious relationship in all the areas they serve, none of which they really have to themselves as many big groups do, except Harrogate? Are Transdev staff there so renegade? Or is it the competitor who is the issue? What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Apart from some LCC tendered services, and a few local services they don’t want to invest in, Transdev have Blackburn, Burnley and half of East Lancs to themselves.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Transdev, in their various forms, can have what appears to be a harmonious relationship in all the areas they serve, none of which they really have to themselves as many big groups do

Transdev have all their areas to themselves. Burnley, Blackburn, Keighley, Vale of York, all completely Transdev barring a few local tenders. Other than in Harrogate, they don't really have anyone to fall out with.

As I said up thread, several times, Hornby was exactly the same when he was at TrentBarton, with the little sly tricks and cheats and the passive-aggressive twittering against YourBus. Hornby has plenty of form in engaging in this sort of behaviour.

But the Temples, like Scott Dunn in Nottingham, really don't do themselves any favours. Hornby plays them like a fiddle; he does his dirty tricks, like with the bus timetables, and they just can't help but bite.

 

[Deerfold]

Transdev have all their areas to themselves. Burnley, Blackburn, Keighley, Vale of York, all completely Transdev barring a few local tenders. Other than in Harrogate, they don't really have anyone to fall out with.

There's a few corridors where Transdev parallel First for significant parts of the routes.

 

[markymark2000]

Can you count the Stagecoach competition on Blackburn to Preston (admittedly only the end to end journey) and the Blackburn Road competition in Bolton with Arriva? Not overly competative but it's still there.

 

[RustySpoons]

I've often wondered how the Competition Commission (or whatever they're called nowadays) never got involved with the sale of Rosso, effectively giving Transdev the complete monopoly of services in East Lancs. Especially when they forced Stagecoach to sell Preston Bus after they bought it back in the late 2000s for similar reasons.

 

[Stan Drews]

Can you count the Stagecoach competition on Blackburn to Preston (admittedly only the end to end journey) and the Blackburn Road competition in Bolton with Arriva? Not overly competative but it's still there.

I don’t believe it’s really about the competition.
I’ve worked for both large and small operators in different parts of the UK, and have friends working for many others. In almost all cases the people running these operators have always had good relations with other ops in the areas, even where they may compete with them. The Blazefield/Connexions issue has much more to do with ‘former employee’ syndrome.

 

[Stan Drews]

I've often wondered how the Competition Commission (or whatever they're called nowadays) never got involved with the sale of Rosso, effectively giving Transdev the complete monopoly of services in East Lancs. Especially when they forced Stagecoach to sell Preston Bus after they bought it back in the late 2000s for similar reasons.

Rosso and Transdev didn’t really have any competing routes, so there wasn’t really anything for the CC (or whatever they are actually known as now) to investigate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've often wondered how the Competition Commission (or whatever they're called nowadays) never got involved with the sale of Rosso, effectively giving Transdev the complete monopoly of services in East Lancs. Especially when they forced Stagecoach to sell Preston Bus after they bought it back in the late 2000s for similar reasons.

Perhaps because Stagecoach had strong armed Preston into submission, whereas Transdev didn't.

Also, Rosso had Rawtenstall and a few other smallish towns but when you consider Ramsbottom, Bury, and Rochdale, then there was plenty of competition.

 

[RustySpoons]

Transdev had a bit of an issue with Pilkingtons in Accrington in the past too. When Transdev unwisely rerouted their Hyndburn Circular service to run up Shadsworth Pilkingtons stepped in and ran the 'old' Hyndburn Circular service, much to passengers delight. Transdev drivers started telling passengers that Pilkingtons were uninsured, not allowed to accept ECNTS passes, etc. Shortly afterwards Transdev reverted to the original route.

Both companies seem to happily co-exist at the moment, but it has put the owner off 'filling in the gaps' left by Transdev's service cuts.

 

[RustySpoons]

Rosso and Transdev didn’t really have any competing routes, so there wasn’t really anything for the CC (or whatever they are actually known as now) to investigate.

Perhaps because Stagecoach had strong armed Preston into submission, whereas Transdev didn't.

Also, Rosso had Rawtenstall and a few other smallish towns but when you consider Ramsbottom, Bury, and Rochdale, then there was plenty of competition.

Very good points, especially regarding Rammy, Bury, etc.

I'll admit I'm not too clued up on the whole Preston Bus/Stagecoach saga, I'd always assumed it was just because they'd have the monopoly of most services, rather than the competing routes.

 

[Stan Drews]

Transdev had a bit of an issue with Pilkingtons in Accrington in the past too. When Transdev unwisely rerouted their Hyndburn Circular service to run up Shadsworth Pilkingtons stepped in and ran the 'old' Hyndburn Circular service, much to passengers delight. Transdev drivers started telling passengers that Pilkingtons were uninsured, not allowed to accept ECNTS passes, etc. Shortly afterwards Transdev reverted to the original route.

...and in some eyes that’ll be the fault of AH too, even although he didn’t work there at the time!

I'll admit I'm not too clued up on the whole Preston Bus/Stagecoach saga, I'd always assumed it was just because they'd have the monopoly of most services, rather than the competing routes.

More recently there has been a much more sensible view of acquisition, largely because the vast majority have effectively been rescuing an ailing business, or purchasing from someone looking to sell up. Plus the fact that there is very little hardcore competition across the bus industry anymore.

 

[RustySpoons]

...and in some eyes that’ll be the fault of AH too, even although he didn’t work there at the time!

When did AH start? This was 2014ish. But you're right though, I think it was more of a local issue trying to save face and disguise the fact they messed the route up.