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Complex Penalty Fare

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WillPS

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WillPS was saying that if you refuse to sign a UFN that you are not accepting the contract and it can't be enforced. We were just making the point that the contract is entered into by getting on the train.
That isn't what I said at all.

I don't see how that can be so. There's no facility for UPFNs in law so they're surely just a contract. A contract which one party has refused to agree to is not a contract at all.

Of course, there's nothing to stop the TOC proceeding to attempt to gain payment, and if that's not forthcoming the TOC could then sue for nonpayment/ticketless travel/whatever. The name and address given is sufficient to launch such action - so in essence the legitimacy of the contract is academic.

I am not a lawyer.
 
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Deerfold

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Given my experience of Comet, I'm surprised they didn't put her in an armlock until she bought the extended warranty. Last time I went there to buy a household appliance, the salesman didn't care which I bought, once I bought the warranty with it...

I seem to recall they used to make far more money on warranties than on goods - that may have hastened their decline when consumer law on such things became tighter and had a cooling off period added.
 

34D

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John at home then chips in because he likes to pick up on all sorts of things I say to argue about semantics - quite why I don't know or care.

:o John@Home is one of the friendliest and most knowledgable members on here, and someone I am long overdue to have another drink with.

If I was going to have a moan about some members on this forum then hed be at the bottom of a long list.
 

Flamingo

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That isn't what I said at all.

If there is no contract there is nothing to enforce. Look at Judge Judy ;)

However, refusal to sign a UFN has nothing to do with whether the passenger has accepted a contract with the railway, they accepted the contract when the stepped onto the train and it left the station with them on board.
 

island

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When my mother purchased a laptop from Comet, they had a bizarre policy of requiring a signature to say confirm that they'd offered you an extended warranty and you'd turned it down! Anyway, back on topic...

That's to prove that the staff member had done his job and offered it. The till automatically prints the slip.

I once walked out of PC World without buying the laptop I wanted because the salesman just would not accept that I didn't want an extended warranty. (The same laptop that I bought shortly afterwards at a different store is just approaching its fifth birthday and has never had any fault of any kind.)
 

Ferret

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:o John@Home is one of the friendliest and most knowledgable members on here, and someone I am long overdue to have another drink with.

If I was going to have a moan about some members on this forum then hed be at the bottom of a long list.

It takes all sorts! I'd have a beer with just about anyone on here, and I don't really do grudges. Anyway, all this is is an internet forum, so I'm not about to make a major issue of anything! I guess you tend to notice things after two or three occasions - I'm sure I'll get over it!
 

WillPS

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If there is no contract there is nothing to enforce. Look at Judge Judy ;)

However, refusal to sign a UFN has nothing to do with whether the passenger has accepted a contract with the railway, they accepted the contract when the stepped onto the train and it left the station with them on board.
You're saying that, I stated the opposite - that a TOC can seek payment without a signature on a UPFN document, and can launch further action from there if needs be.
 

Ferret

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You're saying that, I stated the opposite - that a TOC can seek payment without a signature on a UPFN document, and can launch further action from there if needs be.

Of course they can do this - using the leverage provided by Byelaw 18 or s5 of the RoR Act!
 

jon0844

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I once walked out of PC World without buying the laptop I wanted because the salesman just would not accept that I didn't want an extended warranty. (The same laptop that I bought shortly afterwards at a different store is just approaching its fifth birthday and has never had any fault of any kind.)

[Off topic]I came close to walking out of a Comet before for wanting to buy a £9.99 'value' kettle and being pressurised to take out a warranty for £4.99.

Besides me asking if they were admitting the kettle was likely to fail, as they were so deperate for me to get cover for it, I kept pointing out (pointlessly) that if it did break then I'd just buy another for £9.99 and if I insured every single appliance then I'd be out of pocket if they didn't fail - and most don't. In my old job, we had some £3 quid kettle from Tesco that lasted almost ten years, and eventually failed because people didn't descale it.

I don't even insure our washing machine or dishwasher anymore, as they rarely fail - and if they're going to fail due to some manufacturing defect, chances are it will happen during the standard warranty you get anyway.

Finally, the other thing that bugged me - although it was less of an issue in recent years - was being pressured to buy on credit, even when I had cash in hand. I was told to keep the money and pay on 'buy now, pay later' where you pay nothing and then have a small window to pay in full without any fees, or end up stuck in a five-year credit agreement at about 439040934890384% APR (or thereabouts). What annoyed me is that some people, which you could class as idiots or gullible, went for it - and probably ended up paying loads more than they could if they stuck to their guns - but staff didn't want anyone paying by cash and tried hard to stop you![/Off topic]
 

RJ

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For the first time, EMT have offered me compensation "for the way that you have been dealt with by members of our on board train staff" and also the loss incurred by the postage of the vouchers by Special Delivery.

They have provided e-coupons for use when booking through their website only.

One is for £10.
One is for £20.
 

maniacmartin

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Its a shame they didn't cover your monetary loss in posting the vouchers, in real money, not vouchers.
 

bb21

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Its a shame they didn't cover your monetary loss in posting the vouchers, in real money, not vouchers.

Better than nothing. After all they didn't have to offer anything and the token sum offered hardly covers the amount of hassle RJ had with them.
 

WillPS

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Better than nothing. After all they didn't have to offer anything and the token sum offered hardly covers the amount of hassle RJ had with them.

Nobody has to do anything, but if it got to a court and the court ruled in RJ's favour I'm fairly sure they'd accept it as a cost and order a payment in cash.

I am not a lawyer.
 

sheff1

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For the first time, EMT have offered me compensation "for the way that you have been dealt with by members of our on board train staff" and also the loss incurred by the postage of the vouchers by Special Delivery.

They have provided e-coupons for use when booking through their website only.

One is for £10.
One is for £20.

Not exactly generous, but at least it's a start. Now they have apparently accepted, in writing, inappropriate behaviour by their staff, then any future hassle of a similar nature must leave you in an even stronger position in seeking adequate recompense.
 

bb21

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Nobody has to do anything, but if it got to a court and the court ruled in RJ's favour I'm fairly sure they'd accept it as a cost and order a payment in cash.

I am not a lawyer.

But it will never get to that stage, so comparison with that scenario is meaningless.
 

RJ

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I travelled back to the East Mids today with my Blundellsands ticket. This time, the TM saw my name on my railcard and recognised it from the briefings. Apparently, some of the TMs have been wondering who exactly I am after all the fuss that has been made and he seemed surprised to have met me. Although he disappeared after first inspecting my ticket and came back donning an Avantix Mobile machine, he didn't attempt to charge me and instead listened to what I had to say, which is a welcome change. It was all very civil and I'm glad I didn't have to tip the National Transport Tokens out onto the table on this occasion.

In the meantime, I replied to the last correspondence I received from EMT, politely declining their offer. I confirmed that I would not be redeeming those e-coupons provided because I did not deem it appropriate as a compensation offer for the way I have been treated. However, I agree with sheff1 - it's a start. They've responded and it's evident that we may be in the preliminary stages of an alternate dispute resolution.
 

Airlink

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The correct action if a ticket is invalid due to a time of day or geographical route restriction not being adhered to would be an excess to the route or ticket type that is valid, or a UPFN for the SDS/SOS if the customer refuses to pay the excess.

Correct.
 

RJ

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I travelled back to the East Midlands on Monday. I used the 18:55 from St Pancras with the return portion of my Off Peak ticket to Hightown.

The TM came checking tickets a few minutes after departure from STP. I showed her the Online Only SVR I had purchased for the journey. She looked at it for a few seconds then I produced my railcard, which has my name on it. She asked me where Hightown was, so I said it was near Liverpool. She asked where I was changing and I told her that I was breaking my journey along the way instead of going through to Sheffield.

She looked at the ticket again with uncertainty, then looked at me. I smiled, she smiled back, stamped the ticket and moved on. I got the distinct impression that she realised who I was. I understand the brief that has been issued has my name on it and the stations I always travel between. I'm very pleased to be reporting on the improved attitude of the TMs. It has taken a long time to get to this stage, but at least we're there now.

I like the way the ticket type is shown as "ONLINE ONLY SVR." It's not immediately apparent that it's an Off Peak ticket so that was one less thing for me to be picked up on. The 18:55 is a nice, quiet train to travel on - it's the last "peak" service of the evening. The 19:25 is usually crowded and a couple of times, I've had to stand in the vestibule as there are never enough seats. I'll be travelling back down to London with a ticket from Fazakerley on Friday afternoon. In the meantime, seeing as I have plenty of spare time this week, I might actually take a trip to Southport at some point :p
 

barrykas

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I travelled back to the East Midlands on Monday. I used the 18:55 from St Pancras with the return portion of my Off Peak ticket to Hightown.

I'm assuming the validity code for the ticket in question isn't 2C then, given that's not valid from St Pancras before 18:59. ;)
 

RJ

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Your assumption about the validity code is entirely correct :)

However, about the origin of the ticket...;)
 

jon0844

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Best make sure you don't one day slip up and actually use a ticket incorrectly RJ! If you did, they'd be all over you again!
 

RJ

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I haven't to date with EMT - hard as they've tried, they haven't been able to pin anything on me. This is something that I thought about when I first decided to do my business in the East Midlands as well as London. I've employed methods to mitigate the risk of just that happening. I'm equipped and prepared to deal with what I anticipated - a TOC who will look for reasons to counter the use of legitimately creative ticketing.

It's an example of a non zero sum game. If I win, EMT lose to some extent but if they win, I will lose to much greater extent. They're always trying to win, but unfortunately they don't seem to understand what is required to win the game - the ability to predict my actions as well as the ability to be unpredictable. For them to win the game, they first need to obtain the competencies necessary to inspect tickets properly. Their staff should then be taking down the details of loopholes without me noticing, then they should shut them down without me being aware of it. Some of my arrangements are very fiddly and could be invalidated by the price of a ticket changing by 10p mid-NFM. However, for this to work then they would need to know exactly what I know and identify the areas in which I might not be so meticulous. Fortunately for me, it's assumed I don't know anything, which provides me with an advantage.

It's a bit of a sad indictment when a firm/consumer interaction becomes a rival interaction, but if that's how things are then it's necessary to know how to play the game!
 
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AlexS

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It's a bit of a joke really. By far the most sensible thing to do would be to strip the ticketing system entirely and start again with something that's less of a ridiculous monster. How on earth you'd manage that successfully though is beyond me. I suspect you'd just end up losing the various conditions that give the passenger an advantage like break of journey, split ticketing etc.

I personally just can't get my head around it all, it's bizarre. I can just about cope with simple splitting of tickets but the more obscure restrictions are insane and I'm surprised they've not been dispensed with long ago.
 

yorkie

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I know the origin, and I do not think that this particular 'anomaly' can be 'fixed' just yet.

It will go when the new maps produced by 'Basemaps' come in, for sure.

I personally just can't get my head around it all, it's bizarre....
You're welcome to join as at one of our Fares workshops! (would be good to see you again - it's been a while!)

We do have a structure for the workshops now (which was developed over time) but also allow any questions and we can cover any topic that the people attending request.

Best make sure you don't one day slip up and actually use a ticket incorrectly RJ! If you did, they'd be all over you again!
The problem with EMT is that some people at their HQ think they know it all and are incredibly arrogant and non-responsive. Clearly, this is personal for some of them. It's a shame you can't pick up the phone and ask them a relatively simple question about whether or not their policies match up with the legislation or T&Cs as defined in The Manual, and get a correct answer. But no, they have to make things up that are against the passenger, and insist they are right. I was accused of attempting to discuss a specific case when in fact all I wanted to do was discuss policy :roll: Eventually you can speak to a manager who is polite, and they just admit they don't know the rules and offer to 'investigate'.

So there are plenty of times that EMT think RJ is in the wrong, but in fact he isn't. Their Customer Services team certainly lack the required knowledge. Even when you give them the URL to the answer, like the Penalty Fare legislation for example, they still don't know, and come out with claims like "yes we can charge a penalty fare to a customer travelling on an off peak ticket at a time the ticket is valid" even though it is stated very clearly that isn't allowed.

I despair with them - they don't seem to want to learn! And if they don't want to learn, they will not catch RJ out, because they will keep thinking they are in the right when they are not!

After all, there isn't an effective Regulator or passenger rights group to force EMT to know, and apply, the correct rules, is there? And without that, they just can't be bothered to play fair, and make rules up. Most passengers just pay whatever charges they make because they don't know the rules. So there is a financial incentive for them to make up the rules! I think some people at EMT are shocked, disgusted and even angry that some people know the rules better than them and won't let them get away with making rules up.

So, I certainly wish RJ all the best. But I would advise exercising extreme caution. Our archaic, disproportionate railway legislation is incredibly biased towards the TOCs, so a mistake could be very costly.
 

AlexS

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To be fair the priv fares I use are cheap enough that I don't really feel the need to think too much about it, and travel within a couple of hundred miles of my home is totally free and unrestricted anyway.

Having seen the kind of shenanigans that occur though I just don't reckon the system as it stands is particularly fair because it's so complicated that you could spend years studying it and still not have it fully to pat.
 

sarahj

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If one holds a "normal" ticket and wishes to travel further than the destination, one can obtain an excess which renders the ticket valid to that destination, with no need for the train to call at the original destination (it effectively becomes a ticket to the new destination).

This is not possible for Season tickets, so as an alternative the requirement for the train to call at the changeover point is waived. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The use of 19(c) to string together a series of tickets is probably an unintended consequence of the way the Condition is written. I am a little concerned that using it in this way is likely to lead to its eventual removal, to the detriment of the majority of Season ticket holders (though to be fair I imagine most aren't aware of this convenient rule).

With reference to this, i never knew this opt out for stopping on a season, so I can see why the season ticket valid to West hampstead, and then a ticket onwards is valid wihout the train stopping is valid.

However, as a person who sells tickets I have a question who these expoliters of loopholes might know the answer to.

A person buys a SDR to a desintation on SWT on a southern train. The ticket is valid not london. They then buy a 2 zone travel card. Would this person have to be on a train (or change to a train at ECR) that stops at Clapham junction, or could they travel into say london bridge, being that the train they are on runs non stop from east croydon to london bridge. (the ticket is being bought by on the train before haywards heath) I dont want to mention the distination, but would be happy to talk to someone like RJ in pm. I want to give the correct advice on this.

SJ
 

MikeWh

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A person buys a SDR to a desintation on SWT on a southern train. The ticket is valid not london. They then buy a 2 zone travel card. Would this person have to be on a train (or change to a train at ECR) that stops at Clapham junction, or could they travel into say london bridge, being that the train they are on runs non stop from east croydon to london bridge. (the ticket is being bought by on the train before haywards heath) I dont want to mention the distination, but would be happy to talk to someone like RJ in pm. I want to give the correct advice on this.

SJ

If the travelcard is a one day version then the train would need to stop somewhere in zone 2. If it is a travelcard season then it would not need to stop.
 

talltim

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While I'm glad that RJ is getting less hassle, it seems wrong that this is because the TMs have been told to look out for him and ignore his tickets, rather than because they have been trained enough to be able to see that his tickets are in fact valid.
 
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