Complex Penalty Fare

[RJ]

So far, in the 9 weeks I have been using those tickets, I've saved around £750 on the costs of the equivalent Super Off Peak and (and in two instances, the Anytime) fares for the actual journey I use them to do between London and the East Mids. Not including the leisure journeys I actually made to the Liverpool/Southport/Wigan triangle just to see some of these places I was buying tickets to. The benefits of having copious amounts of spare time

Loopholes inevitably have a shelf life. Whichever ticket I use, it's going to get picked up on sooner or later. Ultimately, they all end up being disclosed in full detail to those working in retail departments so as it has been from Day 1, it's a case of gracefully moving on to the next one when this happens. I do say gracefully, but that doesn't extend to allowing the removal of regulated fares from sale to go unquestioned. I was meaning to follow that up as I asked EMT about this on the 5th January 2013 and never got a response.

I do have a number of the aforementioned tickets stockpiled for future dates. For new purchases, I've now moved on to the next set of tickets, which I'm sure will be seen to in due course!

 

[talltim]

Interesting that some EMT staff do not seem to have taken in the notice from management (re the deleted/removed post from today)

 

[RJ]

It might be worth delaying a few days to run through your proposals with a solicitor. You can then add the cost of the consultation to your claim. And, if there are further developments, there will be someone to consult who is already up to speed with your situation.

After just over a month, I received a reply to my humble attempts at amicable alternate dispute resolution.

East Midlands Trains have gone down the road of sending a psuedo-patronising reply assuring me that they take/follow up complaints seriously, but as it was my choice to go by the book and appeal to IRCAS and Customer Relations, they aren't prepared to cover the administrative costs.

The final paragraph of the letter was "Once again, thank you for bringing to our attention the errors in the systems behind the Routing Guide. We are working closely with ATOC to rectify these."

Probably the wrong time of year to give me further administrative work to do as I've got four weeks of thumb twiddling for Easter Holidays!

 

[Wolfie]

After just over a month, I received a reply to my humble attempts at amicable alternate dispute resolution.

East Midlands Trains have gone down the road of sending a psuedo-patronising reply assuring me that they take/follow up complaints seriously, but as it was my choice to go by the book and appeal to IRCAS and Customer Relations, they aren't prepared to cover the administrative costs.

The final paragraph of the letter was "Once again, thank you for bringing to our attention the errors in the systems behind the Routing Guide. We are working closely with ATOC to rectify these."

Probably the wrong time of year to give me further administrative work to do as I've got four weeks of thumb twiddling for Easter Holidays!

Not a problem. Just tell them that next time (and with their awful training I fear there will be a next time) you will engage legal representation, do Court and cost them LOTS of money. Given that the Courts encourage "amicable means of resolution" to reduce the burden on the legal system and EMT have effectively closed down that option for you they will NOT be popular with the judge either!

 

[RJ]

I'm going to leave them to their own devices as I have other things to deal with at the moment.

Their decision to decline all attempts at informal resolution appears to be more of a political statement than a decision based on good judgement.

 

[yorkie]

The final paragraph of the letter was "Once again, thank you for bringing to our attention the errors in the systems behind the Routing Guide. We are working closely with ATOC to rectify these."

I find it 'interesting' that London Midland's request to ATOC for an easement has had not been actioned, and LM basically say that ATOC are slow to make changes. Yet all EMT have to do is give ATOC a ring, and suddenly there's an emergency copy of the Routeing Guide uploaded which prohibits the ticket you were using. And to get DfT approval so quickly? Hmmm....

I'd be very interested if someone could explain the reasons for this apparent imbalance, which would avoid me having to speculate.

 

[Clip]

I find it 'interesting' that London Midland's request to ATOC for an easement has had not been actioned, and LM basically say that ATOC are slow to make changes. Yet all EMT have to do is give ATOC a ring, and suddenly there's an emergency copy of the Routeing Guide uploaded which prohibits the ticket you were using. And to get DfT approval so quickly? Hmmm....

I'd be very interested if someone could explain the reasons for this apparent imbalance, which would avoid me having to speculate.

If i were you I would be very sceptical. And as much as I like reading RJs journeys I do not think any of them should become apparent on the forum. Even just by mentioning his troubles has now got a lot of people looking into the routing guide and various fares that should be abolished or classed as not valid.

We dont want that to happen. We need the knowledge to be out there but not to tighten up the fare engine which becomes more restrictive.

And I say that as a man who has lots of influence with his TOC but doesnt want the man to be hit as much as they do with high fares. If that makes sense.

 

[soil]

If i were you I would be very sceptical. And as much as I like reading RJs journeys I do not think any of them should become apparent on the forum.

I'm guessing yorkie has a better idea than most of what RJ's journeys/tickets are.

Even just by mentioning his troubles has now got a lot of people looking into the routing guide and various fares that should be abolished or classed as not valid.

Has it? I don't see any evidence of that. Personally speaking I came to this site because I was intrigued by a circuitous route that was offered to me on a long-distance journey by www.nationalrail.co.uk. Having had the rules explained to me, I have learned many tricks, just a few:

* circuitous maps/map combinations (this was why I came here)
* non-obvious shortest routes (mentioned in several posts + I wrote an app that calculates these)
* 'via X' routes (again mentioned in several posts)
* not via London fares close to London (commonly discussed)
* starting/finishing short (ditto)
* combining multiple routes on one season ticket (quite a few discussions)
* season+non-season splits (again)
* (dis-)easements
plus some others that I won't mention.

Some of the technical details of these concepts and ideas for saving money have been proposed on here by TOC staff, others by senior posters, but I don't think rj has been prominent in this at all, as he has a personal stake in this, as he regularly makes long-distance journeys (I don't).

We dont want that to happen. We need the knowledge to be out there but not to tighten up the fare engine which becomes more restrictive.

The fare engine is already vastly more restrictive than the published rules. As I noted here: http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80339 the fare engine contains double the number of maps as the published routeing guide.

Plus if a loophole is not being used by any passengers, then it might as well not exist.

If you can buy a ticket from London to Leeds, say, and use it to travel to Edinburgh because of a loophole, and then as a result of that use, the loophole gets closed, how exactly is that a bad thing?

And I say that as a man who has lots of influence with his TOC but doesnt want the man to be hit as much as they do with high fares. If that makes sense.

I'm not sure that it does. High fares are high fares. (E.g., London - Leicester, against flow, at 7:45am, for £77) Some people will pay them happily - good for them. Others will refuse, and travel at a later time for half the price. Others might have no choice but still want to reduce the price. A tiny minority of these will end up on this site looking for discounts.

The impact on TOCs of these few passengers is negligible, whereas the impact of high fares falls on everyone.

If a million passengers buy £100 fares and 100 of them reduce that cost to £40 because of this site, that has no effect at all on the overall high fares issue.

The lowest fares tend to be on local services, and are very often legally protected, so the likely outcome of a given loophole would be to change the ticket so it can't be used on an expensive express train, rather than the fares from Bury to Upper Ramsbottom or whatever being doubled.

 

[Clip]

Has it? I don't see any evidence of that. .

I do, because I know my colleagues read this forum more now then they ever did and are trying their best to close certain things. Pricing managers have one thing in mind, money and revenue generation with every flow.

Dont advertise it, and it will not be noticed. Dont even hint.

I even got in **** because I helped someone get a really obscure routing ticket which done us out of money whilst my boss was watching me watch me staff.

EMT are going to close lots of flows soon IIRC so the best thing is not to flaunt it. Just be sensible is all im saying

 

[soil]

I do, because I know my colleagues read this forum more now then they ever did

Because of rj's travails?

and are trying their best to close certain things. Pricing managers have one thing in mind, money and revenue generation with every flow.

Dont advertise it, and it will not be noticed. Dont even hint.

EMT are going to close lots of flows soon IIRC so the best thing is not to flaunt it. Just be sensible is all im saying

Hmm, if EMT are closing flows, that is because of rj boarding long-distance trains using cheap tickets, and these tickets being refused by EMT staff. Not because those tickets are being advertised on here - they aren't.

Ultimately the fact is that you can get from London to Nottingham or whatever using a combination of tickets that provide little or no revenue to EMT. As I understand it, they have rj's name/description (which hasn't been advertised on this forum), and are noting down his tickets, and will try to act against them.

Clearly this is expensive in terms of staff time - for instance the tickets involved are not necessarily issued by EMT and the process to change it is not necessarily straightforward. If their pricing managers believe that is the best use of their time, well I'm glad that I'm not a shareholder.

Actually I think revenue maximisation is complex and challenging and requires a set of fairly high-level skills. I'm not convinced that EMT or other TOCs are necessarily attracting the staff with those skills, so obviously they prefer playing whack-a-mole with rj's tickets.

 

[bb21]

so obviously they prefer playing whack-a-mole with rj's tickets.

You win some and you lose some. It might be a loser with RJ, but maybe this technique is working for them on the whole.

 

[Biggus Tiggus]

Ticket Office staff have a thankless task...On the one hand, they're supposed to be selling passengers the "most appropriate" ticket for the journey they're making, but at the same time they're supposed to be making money for their employer.

As an example, for a Single journey between A and B in the peaks, there's a point to point ticket that costs £x. Alternatively, there's a Ranger ticket that costs £15 less that's also valid for the same journey. Which do you sell?

Similarly, a Single journey from A to C in the peaks costs £y, but by buying a Single from B to C via A you also save £15. Again, which do you sell?

And a long standing one: A Beaconsfield to Zone U1 Anytime Day Return (priced by Chiltern) is £28.00. A Beaconsfield to St Albans Anytime Day Return (routed via London, thus including a cross-London transfer by LU, and priced by FCC) is £23.10. You're working at Beaconsfield and someone asks you for a Day Return to Farringdon. Which do you sell?

 

[Rich McLean]

Ticket Office staff have a thankless task...On the one hand, they're supposed to be selling passengers the "most appropriate" ticket for the journey they're making, but at the same time they're supposed to be making money for their employer.

As an example, for a Single journey between A and B in the peaks, there's a point to point ticket that costs £x. Alternatively, there's a Ranger ticket that costs £15 less that's also valid for the same journey. Which do you sell?

Similarly, a Single journey from A to C in the peaks costs £y, but by buying a Single from B to C via A you also save £15. Again, which do you sell?

And a long standing one: A Beaconsfield to Zone U1 Anytime Day Return (priced by Chiltern) is £28.00. A Beaconsfield to St Albans Anytime Day Return (routed via London, thus including a cross-London transfer by LU, and priced by FCC) is £23.10. You're working at Beaconsfield and someone asks you for a Day Return to Farringdon. Which do you sell?

If someone just asks for a return to x from y, you sell them a return from x and y. If someone comes up to you and asks, what is the cheapest way to get from x to y, then give them the other options of rovers etc which could be cheaper. Or, if someone asks, can I get from x to y on a combination of complex tickets which is valid, then you should sell them.

Most customers, will however, ask for a direct ticket

 

[RJ]

The guidance is to sell the simplest and cheapest ticket, in that order. Anything involving overdistances or splits to reduce the price is a loophole and is thus, not the simplest option. Their other remit is to sell what the customer asks for, but this requires the additional skill of being able to preempt what the customer is intending to do with a ticket that is not the simplest available and interact with the customer to ascertain the degree to which they know what they are doing.

I had someone asking me for an Off Peak Travelcard from a London Terminal at 8am. I asked them when they would be using it and they said on the next train, as they understood that there is no time restriction if going "against the flow." Those three words immediately made it obvious that the passenger was actually thinking about Oyster PAYG in the evening peak and not a paper Travelcard in the morning peak. As such, I was able to advise appropriately and save some hassle for both of us.

IMO the best clerks are those with a decent knowledge of ticketing arrangements for the local area and line of route they work on, coupled with the ability to think quickly.

I've done that job and it's only as hard as you make it for yourself!