Compliance

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AlterEgo

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A purely hypothetical scenario:

1. I do not have a ticket for my journey.
2. At my destination, the station exit is blocked by RPIs.
3. The RPIs ask to see my ticket.
4. I ignore them and exit the station.

What happens next?
 
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More than likely nothing but youd be risking Mr BTP be hiding just out of sight from the RPIs to stop you and do you with more than just ticketless travel.
 

AlterEgo

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More than likely nothing but youd be risking Mr BTP be hiding just out of sight from the RPIs to stop you and do you with more than just ticketless travel.


Well, quite - I was wondering if this has happened to staff and what they did about it.
 

AlterEgo

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If your exit is blocked by RPI's, how do you exit the station?

If you do not stop when asked then the TOC will most likely proceed straight to prosecution as you have shown intent to avoid paying the fare

You just walk past them. They can't manhandle you.

The question is, what happens next? The RPIs do not have any of your details.
 

greatkingrat

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I think most TOCs would train their staff to let the passenger go in that situation. They will probably have mugshots of repeat offenders from CCTV. While you may get away with it a few times, sooner or later there will be BTP around and the consequences will be much worse than a normal Penalty Fare would have been.
 

EM2

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You just walk past them. They can't manhandle you.
Why can't they?
If they ask for your ticket, and you do not provide it, then you have committed an offence under Byelaw 18 (2) (assuming that 18 (3) doesn't apply). So that can bring Byelaw 24 (2) (ii) into play:
24. Enforcement
(2) Removal of persons
...
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised
person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails
to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised
person may be removed from the railway by an authorised
person using reasonable force
. This right of removal is in
addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these
Byelaws.
 

AlterEgo

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They can block the way. If you barge past them, that is assault.

I'm sure most TOCs wouldn't advise their staff to block passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why can't they?
If they ask for your ticket, and you do not provide it, then you have committed an offence under Byelaw 18 (2) (assuming that 18 (3) doesn't apply). So that can bring Byelaw 24 (2) (ii) into play:

Are RPIs trained in using force? Has it ever happened?
 

Stigy

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Why can't they?
If they ask for your ticket, and you do not provide it, then you have committed an offence under Byelaw 18 (2) (assuming that 18 (3) doesn't apply). So that can bring Byelaw 24 (2) (ii) into play:
Byelaw 24 would be pointless in this case as the offender wants to leave anyway....I think you're just proving a point that staff can use force as necessary though ;)

More relevant is s.5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which empowers an authorised person (staff for example) to detain an offender who after failing to show a ticket, refuses to supply their name and address until they can be brought before justice (in the case of staff, this would be the Police.)
 

Bletchleyite

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Why can't they?
If they ask for your ticket, and you do not provide it, then you have committed an offence under Byelaw 18 (2) (assuming that 18 (3) doesn't apply). So that can bring Byelaw 24 (2) (ii) into play:

Which allows them to use reasonable force to remove someone from Railway premises, not to detain them thereon. As they are already leaving of their own free will, no force would be reasonable to assist them in doing so.

Had they passed a barrier *into* the station you would of course be correct.
 

EM2

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Byelaw 24 would be pointless in this case as the offender wants to leave anyway....I think you're just proving a point that staff can use force as necessary though ;)
Not really. I'm just asking why AlterEgo is so sure that the hypothetical RPIs can't (albeit that they probably won't) hypothetically manhandle him when it is explicitly allowed for in the Byelaws (and the RoRA).
 

AlterEgo

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Can't, as in wouldn't be authorised to by their employer notwithstanding any byelaws. It's interesting nobody has ever seen this tested - my thrust is simply that most people caught are pretty compliant with authority, at least up to the point of being stopped.
 

Stigy

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Which allows them to use reasonable force to remove someone from Railway premises, not to detain them thereon. As they are already leaving of their own free will, no force would be reasonable to assist them in doing so.

Had they passed a barrier *into* the station you would of course be correct.

As I said earlier, RRA 1889 would apply, although admittedly staff are usually not encouraged to exercise this. I believe LU RPIs do though?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can't, as in wouldn't be authorised to by their employer notwithstanding any byelaws. It's interesting nobody has ever seen this tested - my thrust is simply that most people caught are pretty compliant with authority, at least up to the point of being stopped.

I'm not an RPI, but I've used this numerous times. Both Byelaw 24 and 5(2) RRA1889.
 
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CarlSilva

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Kinda related to this, being steaming drunk seems to be a good way of not having to show a ticket. I see a fella do that a couple of years ago at Shoreham. He was falling around, singing, generally being offencive and admitted he'd no ticket. The staff couldn't get him out of the station quick enough.
 

sheff1

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A purely hypothetical scenario:

1. I do not have a ticket for my journey.
2. At my destination, the station exit is blocked by RPIs.
3. The RPIs ask to see my ticket.
4. I ignore them and exit the station.

What happens next?

I once witnessed this* at Salford Central. The passenger completely ignored the RPIs and walked on, they shouted at him but he took no notice. No one attempted to follow him and, as far as I could see, no phone calls/signals were made to hidden BTP. He continued walking in the direction of Deansgate without a backward look or any attempt to run.


* Admittedly, I can only assume the person did not have a ticket. He certainly had no intention of showing one.
 
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Hadders

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It wold be unwise for staff to attempt to physically detain passengers in this type of situation.

For starters, you don't know if the person has a weapon on them. Although the RPIs can legally use reasonable force I doubt they'll have the necessary equipment or training to detain someone properly.

Finally, you don't know how long it will take for the police to arrive. Situations can very quickly escalate and become dangerous.
 

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Can't, as in wouldn't be authorised to by their employer notwithstanding any byelaws. It's interesting nobody has ever seen this tested - my thrust is simply that most people caught are pretty compliant with authority, at least up to the point of being stopped.

None of my employers have ever said a word about it to be honest even from my humble begginnings at The Cross. Always will do everything I can to assist in detaining people who have done wrong and yet never been in court nor told off by those who rule me
 

Islineclear3_1

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It's interesting nobody has ever seen this tested - my thrust is simply that most people caught are pretty compliant with authority, at least up to the point of being stopped.

Perhaps then you should test the hypotheses and good advice given here for yourself and see what happens :lol:

Where I have seen RPIs at stations, they have stood partially blocking the station exits/barriers but the really discerning passenger intent on NOT paying their fare will stay on the train or jump the fence.
 

yorkie

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They can block the way. If you barge past them, that is assault.
That's not my understanding. I'm advised that if I block someone's exit, and they barge past, I am the one who can get into trouble. That is, unless you have to block their exit for a health & safety reason and you are acting in the interests of their safety.
 

najaB

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That's not my understanding. I'm advised that if I block someone's exit, and they barge past, I am the one who can get into trouble. That is, unless you have to block their exit for a health & safety reason and you are acting in the interests of their safety.
In this case the RPI would have the protection of the law since they are expressly granted the power to detain the ticketless passenger.
 

yorkie

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In this case the RPI would have the protection of the law since they are expressly granted the power to detain the ticketless passenger.
It would be a risk, and in general companies are unlikely to authorise their staff (or, at least, the vast majority of their staff) to do this, to go back to what AlterEgo said...
Can't, as in wouldn't be authorised to by their employer ....
...some train companies e.g. SouthEastern, have a small team of specialist staff who are authorised to do this, but they have special training for it.

People have lost their jobs for attempting to detain passengers when not authorised to do so.
 

najaB

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It would be a risk, and in general companies are unlikely to authorise their staff (or, at least, the vast majority of their staff) to do this...
Oh, that is without doubt. I was only referring to the legal position. Employer's policies, as you say, vary widely.
 

bb21

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Physical restraining takes place quite often, just not usually in the case of a revenue dispute.

I am with greatkingrat, let them go and have CCTV images downloaded. It is not worth oneself getting assaulted over a few quid. Next time get them by the gonads. One day they will walk into trouble.
 

miami

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If you waves valid ticket at them when you walk past but don't wait for them to work out if it's valid or not, have you broken any byelaws? How about if you give them the ticket and then walk off?

(This is assuming the ticket is valid)
 

185

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#A reminder to all staff to be aware of their own company walk away policies, which usually supersede any bylaw allowance. In law, several tribunal judges have known this (below) exists, and still back the train companies.

EM2 said:
24. Enforcement
(2) Removal of persons
...
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised
person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails
to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised
person may be removed from the railway by an authorised
person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in
addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these
Byelaws.

So in short - no contact. Doesn't matter if someone's life's in peril - no contact. The last train to common sense departed about 1997. :(
 
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