Complicated (well...for me) routing - 'any permitted route'

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by WillWilks85, 13 Apr 2015.

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  1. WillWilks85

    WillWilks85 New Member

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    Hello,

    I am looking for a bit of help on a somewhat complicated journey. I have a return ticket from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street (arriving on Friday Morning, departing on Sunday afternoon). I am hoping to visit my parents in the Lakes over the weekend and so am going to get an off-peak return from Liverpool Lime Street to Oxenholme Lake District.

    My question is this: Do I have to come all the way back to Liverpool or can I just get on a direct train from Oxenholme to Euston? i.e. I am hoping that one of the stops (Lancaster, Preston, Wigan North Western, or Warrington Bank Quay) is a permitted routing point on both the Oxenholme-Liverpool and Liverpool-London legs. Thereby cutting out some time.

    Have tried consulting the routing guide but had little luck. Any guidance would be warmly received.

    Cheers in advance,

    Will
     
  2. DaiGog

    DaiGog Member

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    You are valid via Warrington (i.e. to walk between the two stations) with both tickets, so you may take a direct train provided that it calls at Warrington Bank Quay.
     
  3. WillWilks85

    WillWilks85 New Member

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    Thanks very much. I thought that this might be the case but I couldn't find the evidence to support it in the Routing Guide.

    Thanks again.
     
  4. DaiGog

    DaiGog Member

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    No worries. I checked the validities of each ticket in an induistry system, which is backed up by the elcetronic routeing guide, so Internet journey planners ought to return the same results (it may be useful to print out a sample journey itinerary via Warrington if you are nervous about coming up against a guard who doubts you).
     
  5. First class

    First class Established Member

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    I'm not sure a London-Liverpool ticket is valid via Warrington any more. It was discussed on this forum a few weeks ago. It's certainly valid to Crewe.
     
  6. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    I believe it was London - Liverpool via Manchester that was the route in question.

    Furthermore, London - Liverpool and London - Manchester via Warrington/Earlestown has to the best of my knowledge always been valid. After all, the Liverpool & Manchester Railway was the very first Intercity railway, with the route to London being via the Grand Junction Railway and the London & Birmingham Railway.

    In peace

    Adam
     
  7. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    National Rail Enquiries (NRE) says you need two tickets for London-Liverpool via Warrington.

    It looks like this is one of the routes the sneaky people at Rail Settlement Plan (RSP) removed. It's a reasonable route and looks to have been valid under BR, so should have protected route status. Perhaps some Freedom of Information (FOI) requests can be sent to the DfT asking why they removed it, who requested it, and when they removed it... <D

    By the way, they call us the "routeing guide watchers", but they watch us more than we watch the routeing guide ;):lol:
     
  8. crehld

    crehld Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I believe JakeF is already on the case!
     
    Last edited: 13 Apr 2015
  9. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Please note that "Passengers from Liverpool for London may travel via Manchester on 2/3/4 May 2015". This has also created a medium-loophole for Merseyside/Cheshire/Lancashire passengers - PM me for details

    In the meantime, my MP is currently in discussion with ATOC regarding the matter, having agreed that it is a reasonable route.

    Edit: I can confirm that no passenger will face prosecution or additional charge for travel Liverpool - Warrington - London (or for stopping short on this route). I have a contact at VT who has said whatever the journey planners/booking engines show, their intention is for the route to remain valid via Warrington but not via Manchester.
     
    Last edited: 13 Apr 2015
  10. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    I'm no Routeing Guide expert, but it seems to me that London- Liverpool is permitted via Warrington (but not Manchester) using maps EJ, NC and NR.
     
  11. DaiGog

    DaiGog Member

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    I used the Fujitsu Journey Planner (formerly RJIS, as used in booking offices and so on) which is generally very reliable - and it permits the walk across Warrington.
     
  12. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    When I checked it a couple of minutes ago, NRE allowed one ticket to be used for journeys from Liverpool to London Euston via Warrington and Earlestown. It denied journeys via Wigan and St. Helens Central, although these are usually a bit faster.

    This is as I would expect from the current routeing guide. I don't know if Liverpool-London tickets have ever been valid on the WCML between Wigan and Warrington.
     
  13. WillWilks85

    WillWilks85 New Member

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    All,

    Thank you very much for all of your help, I really appreciate it.

    I think I am just going to go for it and assume that it is ok to go via Warrington on both legs (there seems to be a reasonable level of support for this as a valid route).

    Ultimately, I am paying for the full Oxenholme-Liverpool-London journey, I am am just trying to cut out some time. Hopefully any guard will see that and be reasonable.

    Thanks again.
     
  14. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    As Oxenholme to Liverpool is valid via Crewe the Warrington debate has no relevence to the OPs question. Yes it is valid
     
  15. Searle

    Searle Established Member

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    Just want to check that you haven't got two advance tickets (one Euston - Liverpool, one Liverpool - Euston), because I've heard people call two advance tickets a return before.
     
  16. andythebrave

    andythebrave Member

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    Although the first part is true it should be noted that Crewe would not be a valid switch over point as the Oxenholme to London service does not stop there.
     
  17. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It's not in the 1996 paper Routeing Guide, but I believe I mentioned that in another thread recently.
     
  18. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Only the Birmingham Voyagers call at Crewe, which adds an hour to the journey. If the OP wishes to catch a fast train Warrington would probably be the switchover point.
     
  19. WillWilks85

    WillWilks85 New Member

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    No, I have an off-peak single (any permitted route) for the Liverpool - London leg and I will buy an off-peak return for Liverpool-Oxenholme. My London-Liverpool ticket is a advanced single.

    Cheers.
     
  20. Searle

    Searle Established Member

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    Ok, just checking! that sounds good to me :P
     
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