Compo if no 1st Class available as paid for

[trainophile]

Just wondering how they decide on the amount of compensation payable, in the event that a 1st Class ticket holder has to travel in Standard due to the 1st Class coach/es being full or not available on that service due to set substitution.

Logically I'd expect it to be the difference between the price paid and the Standard Class walk-up fare. However, in the case of Advance tickets, the Standard walk-up fare might exceed the price paid for the Advance 1st. Also, having booked the tickets some time ahead, when one could have bought a very cheap Standard ticket but opted for the pricier 1st, in fairness shouldn't the refund cover the difference between 1st and Standard on that service at the time of purchase?

To illustrate - I've bought a 1st Class ticket today for £19.65. Could have bought Standard for £7.25. In the event that 1st is not available, a refund of £12.40 would seem appropriate. I'd be very surprised if that were the case though. Most probably they'd pay out the difference between £19.65 and the walk-up fare of £13.60.

Same situation I suppose if 1st is declassified?

 

[SussexMan]

Just wondering how they decide on the amount of compensation payable, in the event that a 1st Class ticket holder has to travel in Standard due to the 1st Class coach/es being full or not available on that service due to set substitution.

Not sure whether being full entitles you to anything - NRCOC don't suggest you can get anything. What is full? All seats taken or physically unable to squeeze anyone else in? If all the seats are taken you can always stand up in First Class like many Standard Class passengers have to do in Std Class when all the seats are taken. The ticket is an entitlement to travel, not to a seat.

If there is no First Class on the train then you are entitled to a refund but exactly how the prices are worked out then someone with more experience will need to answer.

 

[Tom B]

If a train is full and you are unable to board it, and you're thus delayed >30mins, you could claim a refund under delay repay, could you not?

(I'd be interested to see how it would pan out in the following circumstances - a holder of an APEX ticket, specified for one train, is unable to board it because of overcrowding. Is his ticket then deemed valid on the next train? How does he obtain permission to do so if he is at a unstaffed station?).

 

[Qwerty133]

I believe, where possible, with advance tickets its worked out by the difference between the fare you paid, and the same tier of advance standard ticket.
EG: if a flow from Rail to Forums has the following first class advances: £30, £29, £28, £22 and the following standard advances: £19,£17,£16and£14 if you paid £30 you'd get £11 (£30-£19) back in RTVs and if you paid £28 you'd get £12.
N.B All prices made up, as its 22:45...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I guess you are already familiar with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) and how they anticipate this question:

G. TRAIN ACCOMMODATION AND RESERVATIONS

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

Additional arrangement for unavailable reserved seats.
Your question may result in different answers dependant of how "full" is to be construed: seats fully occupied with standing room available; seats and standing room fully occupied; locked out of use; barred to non-exclusive passengers, etc. :

40. Reserving seats

Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. Each ticket allows you to reserve no more than one seat per person for each part of your journey.

41. Refund of reservation fees

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you or your cycle, you will be compensated for the inconvenience. The value of the compensation will be no more than the price of the full single fare for the journey. If you are unable or have decided not to travel you will be entitled to claim a refund under Condition 26 for the relevant part of
your journey.

However, I do not consider that first class seated accommodation being fully occupied amounts to "not available". In fact, it is quite clear that "available" is a distinct concept from "unnoccupied seats".

 

[trainophile]

Food for thought there, thanks everyone.

Talking of food, if your 1st Class ticket includes a meal, I'm not sure how that would work if the seats are all taken but there is standing room!

 

[greatkingrat]

Technically, no ticket includes a meal. You may receive complementary food/drink but there is no entitlement to a refund if the advertised catering is not provided. In practice you may well get something as a goodwill gesture.

 

[sarahj]

For us, the refund is if the train has been reported full and standing and first class has been declassified.
Can and does happen.

However, one one occasion, one passenger came up and asked me if first class was being declassified on a train that was short formed. My reply was, 'not while there are standard class seats still available', as there was at the time. His reply was something about 'bloody southern'.

 

[Deerfold]

Technically, no ticket includes a meal. You may receive complementary food/drink but there is no entitlement to a refund if the advertised catering is not provided. In practice you may well get something as a goodwill gesture.

It's not always promoted like that:

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/rail-tra...ticket-options/all-inclusive-ticket-packages/

For the ultimate, hassle-free travel experience, we also offer a range of all-inclusive ticket packages tailored to suit you. When you buy a package it's not just a train ticket. You are also getting a combination of food and drink on board...

 

[talldave]

I was on a short-formed Southern service recently and was most impressed that when the guard de-classified first class, he also gave the headcode of the train for compensation claim purposes as well.

 

[Squaddie]

If First is declassified or otherwise unavailable (on one occasion, on an FGW train in reverse formation, the train manager chose not to deal with a couple of dozen teenagers and others who had decided to sit in first class from Swansea to Bridgend) it's always worth sending a polite letter to customer services. In my experience they invariably refund the entire fare paid.

 

[sarahj]

One of my trains was short formed today. Once there were no more standard seats left, I declassified first class. I then let the punters in first know and the headcode if needed. I also contacted control to let them know.