Compulsory Reservations- Poll

[Iskra]

Following on from the LNER Thread, which explores many of the arguments for and against, I was interested to see what a poll would look like on the above question. Please vote below.

The LNER thread;

Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

Beyond niche cases where people can't get to their booked seat because it's too rammed (and those cases will be few, and mostly inly involve joining at intermediate stations), you've not identified any benefits to anyone - as things stand, if someone wants to book a seat then they can do so...

railforums.co.uk

 

[DarloRich]

Sorry to spoil my paper but i would class mine position as: Unsure. Require more data.

 

[Iskra]

Sorry to spoil my paper but i would class mine position as: Unsure. Require more data.

Interesting! What data would you want?

 

[SynthD]

This year, while I don’t want to sit next to someone and the system tries to make that happen? Yes.

Next year? Yes weakly, because I already use e tickets and this wouldn’t be any extra faff.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad enough educating many passengers that their advance purchase ticket can only be used on that actual train. I don't want to put in a position where I'm turning away walk on passengers when there's plenty of room.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad enough educating many passengers that their advance purchase ticket can only be used on that actual train. I don't want to put in a position where I'm turning away walk on passengers when there's plenty of room.

Indeed- let’s be honest, railways are going to need all the business they can get going forward. Now is NOT the time to complicate matters.

 

[Metrolink]

I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad enough educating many passengers that their advance purchase ticket can only be used on that actual train. I don't want to put in a position where I'm turning away walk on passengers when there's plenty of room.

Indeed- let’s be honest, railways are going to need all the business they can get going forward. Now is NOT the time to complicate matters.

At first I was in disagreement, but now I’m unsure - come to think of it I would want a guaranteed seat on a long journey especially during peak times.

 

[southern442]

Open returns are a thing and I'm rather fond of them. I wouldn't want this to disappear for longer distance services, and I certainly wouldn't want to be made to stand if I was allowed on the train.

 

[Iskra]

At first I was in disagreement, but now I’m unsure - come to think of it I would want a guaranteed seat on a long journey especially during peak times.

Wait until you want to travel on a day and all the trains are sold out...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It depends...

Yes if I was going on a long journey on a pre-planned day and I was guaranteed a comfy seat (of course, "comfy" can have a range of meanings)

No if I decided that I just wanted a day out at the weekend and wanted the flexibility of "turn up and go" on any train

 

[A Challenge]

Yes if I was going on a long journey on a pre-planned day and I was guaranteed a comfy seat (of course, "comfy" can have a range of meanings)

No if I decided that I just wanted a day out at the weekend and wanted the flexibility of "turn up and go" on any train

Your yes arguement doesn't need compulsory reservations, this isn't an arguement between no reservations at all and only compulsory reservations - there is a middle ground, which is called reservations available or reservations recommended.

I do not want to be told that either of my two short XC journeys I couldn't travel because I sat in an unclaimed reserved seat, it that in disruption I couldn't travel for a few more hours/at all today because I had no reservations and because of the disruption, there are no unreserved seats.

If you don't allow people to get on and find unclaimed reserved seats, then that causes problems as not only will the current no shows happen, but numbers will go up as people game the system to book onto multiple trains just in case (as I have done, once booking onto two and missing both due to disruption on a connecting service)

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting! What data would you want?

I should have said detial. How will it work, what are the rules, what are the exceptions, how will walk ups be accomodated, what technology options are to be used etc etc

It is hard to judge pro or con on such little info.

 

[Mojo]

Main concern I have is that InterCity services very often provide a key amount of services for commuter traffic and in some cases within urban areas, for example East Coast from Peterborough to London and again from Doncaster / Wakefield to Leeds; Great Western from Didcot / Reading to London, and in South Wales; West Coast from Milton Keynes to London, Stoke on Trent / Macclesfield / Stockport to Manchester and Coventry - Birmingham - Wolverhampton; CrossCountry from Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads and also into Manchester and Birmingham, etc etc.

 

[Parallel]

I disagree with compulsory reservations. Reservations are normally automatically provided with cheaper tickets and to penalise people for paying more for a flexible ticket is wrong in my opinion.

I’ve always quite liked SWR’s method of reserving a space on a train but not a specific seat, but I can understand the need for seat reservations, especially when making long journeys or for those unable to stand for a period of time.

 

[A Challenge]

I’ve always quite liked SWR’s method of reserving a space on a train but not a specific seat, but I can understand the need for seat reservations, especially when making long journeys or for those unable to stand for a period of time.

While this seems good, I don't think it works as you aren't guaranteeing a seat, and could not reasonably expect a seat for example if travelling into London in the morning peak (if such problems exist now). This system just means you are locked onto a specific service on a through advance without even having the advantage of a guaranteed seat.

 

[Hey 3]

Following on from the LNER Thread, which explores many of the arguments for and against, I was interested to see what a poll would look like on the above question. Please vote below.

The LNER thread;

Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

Beyond niche cases where people can't get to their booked seat because it's too rammed (and those cases will be few, and mostly inly involve joining at intermediate stations), you've not identified any benefits to anyone - as things stand, if someone wants to book a seat then they can do so...

railforums.co.uk

I voted disagree

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think this is a great idea. As a business traveller, before Coronavirus, I'd choose to drive if for whatever reason I couldn't get a seat reservation regardless of what type of ticket I was using. I would happily pay more for my ticket if it meant a guaranteed seat, and a more pleasant experience on board the train, such as no standing, pushing past people in corridors, and crush loaded services. I think that's the case for a lot of my friends and colleagues too.

I would for most journeys also pay between £3-5 for a seat reservation in addition to the ticket cost if it meant I could select my own seat, and see precise loadings on the train, i.e. what seats have been taken already.

The key is just making sure it's all easily done within 1-2 mins on my smartphone or one of the self service ticket machines, but 90% of the time, I pre-book a ticket anyway that comes with a compulsory / free reservation anyway.

I suspect that the days of very crowded long distance trains are behind us, as Covid will have a long lasting impact on decision making and customer service. Even when / if Covid is finally solved, passengers will still remember, and I predict will expect a cleaner, less crowded and more organised journey as standard.

 

[Techniquest]

In a way, I'd say no, because I'm primarily thinking of a rover or ranger trip for that answer. It could be challenging to make compulsory reservations work on such a trip.

However, no was not my answer to the poll, I chose yes. That's because I usually plan my IC rides well in advance, and that's partly for cost reasons, partly because I'm organising a multi day trip or similar where routing and times are both fairly fixed, partly because I'm taking my bike with me. If the bike's coming, I have to make a reservation on IC services so I would obviously choose a seat too if I can.

The days of my hopping on and off IC services just to score whatever MU/loco/whatever is working the train, those days are fairly well behind me and the railway is primarily an A-B transport method for me these days. So compulsory reservations are absolutely fine by me.

No doubt there would be an occasion when it isn't helpful, but as long as reservations are easy to make and available until a few minutes before the train leaves, then I'll not be negatively affected.

 

[edwin_m]

I think this is a great idea. As a business traveller, before Coronavirus, I'd choose to drive if for whatever reason I couldn't get a seat reservation regardless of what type of ticket I was using. I would happily pay more for my ticket if it meant a guaranteed seat, and a more pleasant experience on board the train, such as no standing, pushing past people in corridors, and crush loaded services. I think that's the case for a lot of my friends and colleagues too.

I would for most journeys also pay between £3-5 for a seat reservation in addition to the ticket cost if it meant I could select my own seat, and see precise loadings on the train, i.e. what seats have been taken already.

The key is just making sure it's all easily done within 1-2 mins on my smartphone or one of the self service ticket machines, but 90% of the time, I pre-book a ticket anyway that comes with a compulsory / free reservation anyway.

I suspect that the days of very crowded long distance trains are behind us, as Covid will have a long lasting impact on decision making and customer service. Even when / if Covid is finally solved, passengers will still remember, and I predict will expect a cleaner, less crowded and more organised journey as standard.

None of that requires reservations to be compulsory. People without reservations know they may have to stand, and anyone wanting a guaranteed seat would have the option of waiting for a later train if none were available on their preferred service.

If a train is cancelled then it's likely to become a free-for-all on the next train whatever system is nominally in force.

 

[Jozhua]

I still maintain, reservations do not increase the capacity of the train, in fact often serve to decrease it if people don't turn up for their reservation or someone has the threat of being kicked out at a future stop.

It increases dwell times because people have to play musical chairs at each station, excentuated by the tight spaces in many trains due to the UK's restrictive loading gauge.

It simply ignores the real issues - a lack of investment in frequency and capacity of trains. Hopefully HS2 will begin to resolve it, but in the meantime, government needs to make sure old stock

I'm afraid I disagree. It's bad enough educating many passengers that their advance purchase ticket can only be used on that actual train. I don't want to put in a position where I'm turning away walk on passengers when there's plenty of room.

Completely agree.

Indeed- let’s be honest, railways are going to need all the business they can get going forward. Now is NOT the time to complicate matters.

Railways need all the business they can get and also need to play a vital part in reducing congestion, pollution and carbon emissions.

Making things more complicated will not encourage any of this.

Open returns are a thing and I'm rather fond of them. I wouldn't want this to disappear for longer distance services, and I certainly wouldn't want to be made to stand if I was allowed on the train.

I think the idea is people wouldn't be allowed on the train to stand at all. Which is a bit dumb at rush hour when it's inevitably going to happen to some extent.

Main concern I have is that InterCity services very often provide a key amount of services for commuter traffic and in some cases within urban areas, for example East Coast from Peterborough to London and again from Doncaster / Wakefield to Leeds; Great Western from Didcot / Reading to London, and in South Wales; West Coast from Milton Keynes to London, Stoke on Trent / Macclesfield / Stockport to Manchester and Coventry - Birmingham - Wolverhampton; CrossCountry from Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads and also into Manchester and Birmingham, etc etc.

Very true

I can name even more examples:
Leeds to Sheffield
Sheffield/Chesterfield to Derby
Derby to Leicester
Derby to Birmingham

So basically all services in and out of Derby bar the Crewe and Matlock ones.

 

[Journeyman]

The majority of my long distance train journeys are Edinburgh to London, which I wouldn't even consider doing without a reservation, so it makes no difference to me.

 

[Skie]

If it was as easy as having an app where, if my travel plans change and I have an Anytime ticket, I can just see a seating plan of another train and pick a seat, then yeah sure.

But I can't see anyone making it that simple. You'd need an app for each TOC, some way of linking your ticket to that (hard when you're using corporately booked tickets) and a way to remind you to re-book your seat if you can't make the originally planned train.

 

[ALEMASTER]

As much as I think mandatory reservations on long distance trains would make the journey much more pleasant (everyone gets a seat, passengers that would have had to stand up are directed to alternative trains), there are practicalities in the UK that lead me to say no.

If the long distance trains were catering exclusively for the long distance market I'd probably say yes - reservations would be able to be made right up to departure time as there would be no need to label seats, people generally plan such journeys ahead, get to the station in good time before departure and a pleasant on board environment including getting a seat is important. Reservations could be made at the ticket office or by logging in to an online account.

It would still take away some flexibility that people value. For example if a journey is seriously urgent people currently can make the choice of standing up rather than waiting for a later train or if you see an alternative train coming in (perhaps an earlier one running late) you can just jump on at the moment if you have a valid ticket.

Most long distance trains in the UK also serve multiple markets. To use Sheffield as an example, there are long distance trains on the Sheffield-London, Liverpool-Norwich, Edinburgh-Plymouth and Newcastle-Reading routes that double up as a regional commuter train for journeys like Sheffield-Chesterfield. (Oh and would Cleethorpes-Manchester Airport count as in Intercity train?). Another example would be on the Great Western with Reading-Paddington passengers required to book a seat to use the fast trains which could be fun with season ticket holders at peak time!

There is also the question of what happens during service disruption. Currently one member of staff could stand on the clipboard with a group of passengers and simply deal with it along the lines of "where do you need to be? To get there I suggest you go to platform x, get the next train to y" with announcements and departure board messages helping spread the message and get people on their way. In a mandatory reservation scenario every single passenger would need to queue up at the ticket office whilst the staff work out a revised itinerary and rebook their seats.

 

[Penmorfa]

Compulsory reservations - Absolutely not. Railways are there for the mass movement of people. The railway does'nt use aeropanes and should stop thinking like an airline. The thought of sitting next to Mr Smelly trapped in an irioning board seat with no view out gives me nightmares. Replace Mr Smelly with another species - there are plenty to choose from. Train travel - keep it simple!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

None of that requires reservations to be compulsory. People without reservations know they may have to stand, and anyone wanting a guaranteed seat would have the option of waiting for a later train if none were available on their preferred service.

If a train is cancelled then it's likely to become a free-for-all on the next train whatever system is nominally in force.

I think you misunderstand my view, nobody should have a choice whether to stand or not. No seat, no ride. Only in exceptional circumstances, such as mass disruption should standing be permitted. Obviously this applies to longer distance / inter regional routes, not your local connecting services.

It is a most unpleasant experience to have to travel in a carriage with people stood down the aisle, cluttering up doorways or vestibules etc. I don't really care whether they are happy to be standing there or not, it degrades the experience and forces people like me back into my car, and provides easy media snipes around lack of capacity and high fares. The legacy of COVID will be an even greater spotlight on issues like this for decades. It's no longer socially acceptable, and I suspect TOC risk assessments etc will have a substantially greater emphasis on how passengers interact and mix.

It's not about ME getting a guaranteed seat, EVERYONE should have one.

 

[southern442]

I think you misunderstand my view, nobody should have a choice whether to stand or not. No seat, no ride. Only in exceptional circumstances, such as mass disruption should standing be permitted. Obviously this applies to longer distance / inter regional routes, not your local connecting services.

I can very much understand this point of view, but there are a few issues that I have yet to see a satisfying answer for:
Let's suggest I had a ticket from Reading to London Paddington, perhaps as part of a season ticket or maybe I just turned up on the day. Are you suggesting I should be forced take an (almost) all-stations TfL rail service or a (quicker but still quite slow) GWR stopper, since I couldn't use a GWR intercity train that runs non-stop, unless I booked a ticket in advance? Reading is only 35 miles from London and I'd consider that to be close enough that you would have plenty of passengers in that situation.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I can very much understand this point of view, but there are a few issues that I have yet to see a satisfying answer for:
Let's suggest I had a ticket from Reading to London Paddington, perhaps as part of a season ticket or maybe I just turned up on the day. Are you suggesting I should be forced take an (almost) all-stations TfL rail service or a (quicker but still quite slow) GWR stopper, since I couldn't use a GWR intercity train that runs non-stop, unless I booked a ticket in advance? Reading is only 35 miles from London and I'd consider that to be close enough that you would have plenty of passengers in that situation.

I very much doubt season ticket purchases will resume to any degree of normality ever again, but theoretically:

1) Majority of people (vast majority) with season tickets will travel on the same services to and from work, and will be able to pre-book a seat well in advance, days if not weeks, even months. There should be a refundable deposit for this in my view, although how you reclaim it (tapping in?) is anyone's guess.

2) If the worse happens and you can't book a seat e.g. because you've finished work late AND there's zero capacity left on a InterCity service, then on those rare occasions you can get the slow train home.

In that example though, London to Reading, that's the kind of route commuters should be intentionally removed from InterCity services, if longer distance passengers are being regularly left behind. Same on my regular route from St Pancras. Train rammed to Bedford, whilst people going further afield to Nottingham and Leicester etc can't get on or find a seat!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I disagree.

As others have said, long-distance trains also serve local markets. In my case Stoke-on-Trent to Stafford or Manchester where the parallel stopping service is only hourly. In other cases, there is no parallel stopping service.

Compulsory reservations makes spontaneous travel, or changes to plans on the day, near impossible. Yes, you can perhaps reserve at the last minute by smartphone, but what if that train is fully reserved? If you are only doing a short journey you might be quite happy to stand, or search the train for a 'no show'.

 

[Taunton]

It is a most unpleasant experience to have to travel in a carriage with people stood down the aisle, cluttering up doorways or vestibules etc. I don't really care whether they are happy to be standing there or not, it degrades the experience and forces people like me back into my car

This comes over as one who is comfortably seated while others are standing, which is a marginal experience compared to actually being the standee.

It does seem bizarre that Underground and increasingly outer suburban services have had seats stripped out of recent stock (Underground Metropolitan Line; SWR from Waterloo) on the basis that they want MORE people to stand than before, while others like LNER go the opposite way and come up with all the excuses against standing.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This comes over as one who is comfortably seated while others are standing, which is a marginal experience compared to actually being the standee.

It does seem bizarre that Underground and increasingly outer suburban services have had seats stripped out of recent stock (Underground Metropolitan Line; SWR from Waterloo) on the basis that they want MORE people to stand than before, while others like LNER go the opposite way and come up with all the excuses against standing.

It's "marginal" enough that it would shift me from train to car if there's a likelihood that I'll have people stood next to me on a busy long distance service.

It's 2021 and it's really not acceptable anymore. I also suspect it WON'T be accepted anymore given the lasting legacy of Coronavirus.