Compulsory Reservations- Poll

[southern442]

I very much doubt season ticket purchases will resume to any degree of normality ever again, but theoretically:

1) Majority of people (vast majority) with season tickets will travel on the same services to and from work, and will be able to pre-book a seat well in advance, days if not weeks, even months. There should be a refundable deposit for this in my view, although how you reclaim it (tapping in?) is anyone's guess.

2) If the worse happens and you can't book a seat e.g. because you've finished work late AND there's zero capacity left on a InterCity service, then on those rare occasions you can get the slow train home.

In that example though, London to Reading, that's the kind of route commuters should be intentionally removed from InterCity services, if longer distance passengers are being regularly left behind. Same on my regular route from St Pancras. Train rammed to Bedford, whilst people going further afield to Nottingham and Leicester etc can't get on or find a seat!

In an ideal world, yes, but one cannot force passengers to take a slower train. Can you imagine the uproar?

I have in the past used mainline Southern services and I have had the frustration of hundreds piling on at Clapham Junction only to then all get off at East Croydon, but unfortunately it is what it is. Do you seriously suggest that those passengers should all bundle in on the (usually already full) slow trains? Whilst it may be a while before regular commuting gets back up to the usual levels, to suggest that someone merely travelling for a day out from Reading to London or Bedford to London or Milton Keynes to London should forced to take a train that takes at least twice the time of the perfectly good and perhaps less busy intercity service is quite ludicrous.
In some cases it might even be quicker to drive and to fuel more car use is something that the DfT haven't even tried to do during a pandemic.

Forbidding these types of travellers from using the fastest train available to them will go down like a turd in a casserole at best, and at worst you'd be accused of snobbery and elitism. Unfortunately Intercity trains have to stop at places along the way and there will be people who want to get between those places and not just from London to the final destination, and express train operators have to take this into account.

 

[Hey 3]

I think that compulsory seat reservations should be entirely dropped because as someone said, inter-city services also cater for regional and local markets too and the irony is, the TOC's would make themselves lose profit*
*Yes, I know all franchises are in the DaFT's control but still...

 

[Watershed]

I wouldn't mind nearly as much if local stopping services were added to replace lost IC capacity and frequency. The same as in Germany for example, where RB/RE and IC/ICE serve distinct markets (although they don't feel the need for compulsory reservations).

Since that will never happen, compulsory reservations are a proposal that is entirely incompatible with the current way the British network operates.

 

[Ostrich]

For me, flexibility of travel is the most important criteria, so I'm firmly a "disagree" vote. I'm a sports fan; extra time in an FA Vase or Trophy match, or a lengthy injury delay in a rugby union game plays havoc with my scheduled return journeys more frequently than you might think. If I have to increasingly jump through hoops just to get on a different train to the one I'd normally get, I'm hardly going to be tempted back onto the railways once spectator sport resumes. I can't be fussed with having to re-book things through apps on the hoof.
If compulsory reservation ever arrives on my local WoE line, that'll be the end of train travel as far as I'm concerned .....

 

[MargaretNoodle]

I firmly disagree too. It's extra complication, prevents people from traveling that where happy to stand and reduces the capacity of the trains meaning less people will be able to travel. I can envision a situation where people from Edinburgh would be unable to travel to London because of the train being block booked by commuters from further south.

I personally have never been a fan of reservations anyway and actively try to avoid them where possible for the reason that I can't predict what the on train environment is going to be like before I get on it. I wouldn't like to be forced to sit next to a group of screaming kids, or a bunch of rowdy youths or even just next to someone else if previously I had the option to freely move about the train. A seat selector is going to be no use in preventing that.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

The main advantage of the car is flexibility. If I've got a car with me I choose when I travel, but driving is tiring, and I can't work while I'm driving.

If I have a normal train ticket then there are a range of times I can take, it might not fit my schedule entirely but I've got options. I can pick any train going in the right direction.

If we make reservations compulsory reservation then I probably have to decide when I travel ahead of time. Leaving early or staying late might not be an option, and if it is I'm probably going to have to waste time screwing around looking for another train with a spare seat. If we're really looking to emulate the airlines I'll probably have to pay for the privilege of switching trains.

If taking the train means locking in my schedule in advance then I'll probably drive.

 

[Mojo]

1) Majority of people (vast majority) with season tickets will travel on the same services to and from work, and will be able to pre-book a seat well in advance, days if not weeks, even months. There should be a refundable deposit for this in my view, although how you reclaim it (tapping in?) is anyone's guess.

Perhaps in the morning yes, but I don’t think the same can be said for evening services, particularly on routes like Great Western and West Coast where there are several trains per hour.

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm afraid this poll and some members posts make me laugh.

Way back when.. Well the 80's under BR (remember them?) There used to be certain trains which were compulsory seat reservation (which was free), these were normally on summer weekends on long distance routes such as the WCML ,ECML, and GWML.

I used to travel on All Line Rovers back then, and never had a problem, because the compulsory reservation was free and I had a plan what train(s) I would be travelling on !

So, in all honesty Compulsory reservations in non Covid times is nothing new ! (Unlike some posts on this forum which think it is).

Currently I will vote unsure, as I don't know if EVERY long distance train will be compulsory or if it will be just some.
If it is just some (ie the busiest trains) then I am for it.
However, if it is all, I'm against it, for the reasons others have pointed out (walk up fare customers being Totally excluded and given no choice at all etc).

In an ideal world, yes, but one cannot force passengers to take a slower train. Can you imagine the uproar?

Come catch a Thameslink train at Huntingdon for London, that already happens!!
As for uproar ? It's a case of like it or lump it !

 

[DH1Commuter]

No. The few minutes added to my day, every day, by the need to reserve seats in both directions for a short commute (on an IC line), is an annoyance that serves no purpose, particularly as no-one ever checks (apart from one day just before Christmas when a surprisingly-hostile team were working the barriers at Newcastle Central - the hostility particularly pointless given that to get through the barriers anyone could just say they were heading for the non-reserved TPE service running a few minutes later). Long-term, if made mandatory, this would push more people back into driving.

Rail travel needs to be made good value and easy if it is to re-capture its market.

 

[Parallel]

As others have said, intercity trains also act as regional trains in many cases. Refusing someone travel between Liskeard and Bodmin Parkway because they don’t have a seat reservation would be ludicrous.

And if a LNER train was cancelled, but the following trains were ‘fully booked’, I doubt any of the passengers with seat reservations would be best pleased that they had to potentially wait hours for a train that has space remaining.

Careful what you wish for.

 

[Statto]

As others have said, intercity trains also act as regional trains in many cases. Refusing someone travel between Liskeard and Bodmin Parkway because they don’t have a seat reservation would be ludicrous.

And if a LNER train was cancelled, but the following trains were ‘fully booked’, I doubt any of the passengers with seat reservations would be best pleased that they had to potentially wait hours for a train that has remaining space.

Careful what you wish for.

Agreed, some trains intercity trains are hourly[Euston-Liverpool being one], so train breaks down, passengers have to alight but can't board the next few trains because they're fully booked & could end up waiting hours or until the next day before the next train arrives that isn't fully booked, i can see that going down well

Also as pointed out some intercity trains operate as regional trains too, like Glasgow/Edinburgh-Euston, passengers would be barred traveling local stops like stations between Carlisle to Coventry unless they held a reservation, the flexibility of turn up & go without having to compulsory reservations, regardless of distance traveling is why many favour rail, it would put me off rail travel if i had to reserve a seat before traveling.


I completely disagree with compulsory reservations.

 

[BJames]

It's "marginal" enough that it would shift me from train to car if there's a likelihood that I'll have people stood next to me on a busy long distance service.

It's 2021 and it's really not acceptable anymore. I also suspect it WON'T be accepted anymore given the lasting legacy of Coronavirus.

Take your car then... Nobody wants to stand but sometimes people need to get where they need to get to. I don't agree with your prediction that people won't accept it anymore.

I 100% disagree with compulsory reservations. Inter-city rail travel is not the same as flying, doesn't matter what way you look at it. The current system of reserving a seat on an advance ticket, and having the option to reserve a seat on an open return works fine. I know that there are flaws in this (e.g. maybe you should be encouraged to cancel your seat on an open return and book a different one free of charge if you change your mind as to what time you are travelling, or something like that). But fundamentally, compulsory reservations don't work. I have been on the LNER system not too long ago to see that there were no seats available for any train the whole day going where I needed to go. If that journey had been urgent I actually wouldn't have been able to travel. I would rather stand and get where I need to get to than have to book a seat. If this bothers people from a comfort angle of not liking people standing I suggest they seek an alternative mode of transport.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Take your car then... Nobody wants to stand but sometimes people need to get where they need to get to. I don't agree with your prediction that people won't accept it anymore. I can't understand why you would delay your journey by potentially days and not stand depending on how busy the services are.

I 100% disagree with compulsory reservations. Inter-city rail travel is not the same as flying, doesn't matter what way you look at it. The current system of reserving a seat on an advance ticket, and having the option to reserve a seat on an open return works fine. I know that there are flaws in this (e.g. maybe you should be encouraged to cancel your seat on an open return and book a different one free of charge if you change your mind as to what time you are travelling, or something like that). But fundamentally, compulsory reservations don't work. I have been on the LNER system not too long ago to see that there were no seats available for any train the whole day going where I needed to go. If that journey had been urgent I actually wouldn't have been able to travel. I would rather stand and get where I need to get to than have to book a seat. If this bothers people from a comfort angle of not liking people standing I suggest they seek an alternative mode of transport.

I very much suspect you are wrong. Indeed some of my clients (generally in legal and regulatory sectors) are drawing up specific guidance around travelling on public transport at the moment, and for the first time in a long time, upgrading to first class is making a comeback, caveated that it must be justified to support a "healthier" journey and reduce the risk to others, specifically referencing crowded services.

I think some of you grossly underestimate how businesses will react in terms of future risk assessments, staff wellbeing etc going forwards, whether or not you think Covid is overblown.

 

[Hughby]

I voted no.

I think compulsory reservations (post covid) is a bonkers idea. Why would I want to lose the flexibility of a turn up and go ticket? I would be far less likely to use the train if I had to make and then use a reservation.

 

[southern442]

I very much suspect you are wrong. Indeed some of my clients (generally in legal and regulatory sectors) are drawing up specific guidance around travelling on public transport at the moment, and for the first time in a long time, upgrading to first class is making a comeback, caveated that it must be justified to support a "healthier" journey and reduce the risk to others, specifically referencing crowded services.

I think some of you grossly underestimate how businesses will react in terms of future risk assessments, staff wellbeing etc going forwards, whether or not you think Covid is overblown.

Well then, surely we should just let businesses allow people to upgrade to first class?

Granted, the point you are making is very important, but could this not be solved by creating a few reserved carriages to be 'non-standing', (even then I think some forum members will have a thing or two to say about that), or as you mention, getting people upgraded? And so far all of the legitimate concerns that we have raised are met with 'sorry about that, people will just have to suck it up' which I don't think is acceptable.

 

[Taunton]

In the times of printed card reservation slips, which only went a couple of years ago, it was common on the early morning trains from Kings Cross to find that half or more of the seats reserved were not sat in (it's not so easy to spot this now). Those getting in at Peterborough seemed well used to looking at the slips for what had come from London reserved to Leeds but unused.

The reservation system has not changed, but the railway never has seemed to get to grips with this; Alan Williams was writing about this and what a nonsense it all was in Modern Railways in he 1970s. What chance then with compulsory reservations.

 

[Romsey]

In the times of printed card reservation slips, which only went a couple of years ago, it was common on the early morning trains from Kings Cross to find that half or more of the seats reserved were not sat in (it's not so easy to spot this now). Those getting in at Peterborough seemed well used to looking at the slips for what had come from London reserved to Leeds but unused.

The reservation system has not changed, but the railway never has seemed to get to grips with this; Alan Williams was writing about this and what a nonsense it all was in Modern Railways in he 1970s. What chance then with compulsory reservations.

Exactly the same used to happen at Reading on trains heading west.
What did annoy me when commuting from Paddington was people who used to make multiple reservations on a range of services homes, so they had a reserved seat on whichever train they caught. Quite a few guards/train managers used to suggest give it a couple of minutes after departure and if no one turns up use the seat.

 

[stut]

What about Japanese style? Have dedicated reserved and unreserved carriages, with the number of each varying according to expected passenger flow.

Make sure seats can be booked at any time up to boarding (which is easier with fully reserved carriages, as you're never turfing anyone out of their seats).

You can even promote the reserved carriages (as they do on some Shinkansen services) by having slightly better seating.

 

[Horizon22]

I think you misunderstand my view, nobody should have a choice whether to stand or not. No seat, no ride. Only in exceptional circumstances, such as mass disruption should standing be permitted. Obviously this applies to longer distance / inter regional routes, not your local connecting services.

It is a most unpleasant experience to have to travel in a carriage with people stood down the aisle, cluttering up doorways or vestibules etc. I don't really care whether they are happy to be standing there or not, it degrades the experience and forces people like me back into my car, and provides easy media snipes around lack of capacity and high fares. The legacy of COVID will be an even greater spotlight on issues like this for decades. It's no longer socially acceptable, and I suspect TOC risk assessments etc will have a substantially greater emphasis on how passengers interact and mix.

It's not about ME getting a guaranteed seat, EVERYONE should have one.

The problem with this approach is that you are placing your standards upon everyone. Some people may be perfectly happy to stand for 60+ minutes, for others it would be abhorrent. Compulsory reservations forces everyone into one camp.

I am unsure because it is completely justified on longer journeys (London - Scotland / Cornwall & Devon), yet within those journeys are small regional journeys for which it would be hassle to implement a system for this if someone takes a 30-60 minute journey. What we do need is some smarter ticketing solutions and maybe even warnings when ticket sales are at a particular point which state "Please note that due to a high number of reservations, we cannot guarantee you a seat on this train/journey". But there's so much interconnectivity and multiple options to buy a ticket it becomes rather difficult to implement.

The traffic light system on 80x isn't too bad but again it goes both ways - its "red" when there's evidently nobody sitting there, or you get loads of "green" but people are in every seat. I'd also suggest the public aren't very "smart" at picking empty carriages - at London terminals the front 3-4 coaches can often be sparsely loaded, whilst its full and standing in the rear section. A good guard will spot this and move people down, but it doesn't always happen.

What about Japanese style? Have dedicated reserved and unreserved carriages, with the number of each varying according to expected passenger flow.

Make sure seats can be booked at any time up to boarding (which is easier with fully reserved carriages, as you're never turfing anyone out of their seats).

You can even promote the reserved carriages (as they do on some Shinkansen services) by having slightly better seating.

This would require on-the-fly diagramming and scheduling which is pretty hard to implement. Sure it's OK for major events and such, but some sort of disruption or train fault and the fleet(s) on some TOCs can be wildly out of balance.

 

[Bevan Price]

Agreed, some trains intercity trains are hourly[Euston-Liverpool being one], so train breaks down, passengers have to alight but can't board the next few trains because they're fully booked & could end up waiting hours or until the next day before the next train arrives that isn't fully booked, i can see that going down well

Also as pointed out some intercity trains operate as regional trains too, like Glasgow/Edinburgh-Euston, passengers would be barred traveling local stops like stations between Carlisle to Coventry unless they held a reservation, the flexibility of turn up & go without having to compulsory reservations, regardless of distance traveling is why many favour rail, it would put me off rail travel if i had to reserve a seat before traveling.


I completely disagree with compulsory reservations.

I would like to ask any platform or train staff - would you like to be placed in a situation where angry passengers are barred from boarding a train because they have no / incorrect reservations ? You might be able to bully a few defenceless pensioners, but what about an agressive person who is already well-loaded with alcohol ? At best - a torrent of foul, abusive language, at worst - a threat of physical violence ? An an employer - would you really want to put your staff at risk unnecessarily ? Or do you live in some kind of dreamworld, imagining that everybody thinks that all your ideas are some kind of wondrous perfection, or you are totally out of touch with everyday reality?

TOCs / Successors / DfT ALL need to remember that railway exist for the convenience of the public. not vice versa.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

For many people, commuting as we used to know it may well never come back. Casual long distance travel around the UK might not necessarily bounce back for a little while either. Talk of standing room only intercity trains right now is only hypothetical.

Coming out of this situation and faced with the lowest level of rail travel in decades, the risk to someone's rich clients of having their on-train experience slightly damaged by people standing on the aisle feels just slightly hyperbolic?

 

[Essexman]

I totally disagree with compulsory reservations other than for a very few selected trains - Cornish Riviera Limited.
Flexibility is important to me and many passengers. I would be willing to pay for a reservation if it allowed me to select a seat.

 

[The exile]

There are probably a few trains for which compulsory reservations might be justifiable, such as sleeper services or very limited stop services (London - first stop Newcastle - Edinburgh for example), but while there are journeys such as Chippenham - Bath which can only be made by intercity trains, making all Intercity trains compulsory reservation only is impractical. Maybe a compromise would to reintroduce something like "Silver Standard" (remember that?) for one coach - reservation included and standing not permitted - with a minimum fare that would discourage short-distance usage and the disturbance that that entails, but without the extra space and "add-ons" of first class. To simplify things it could even be combined with the "Quiet Coach" - I doubt short distance passengers would miss it!

 

[squizzler]

Compulsory reservation and the proposed fares reform are two sides of the same coin and I feel are now inevitable. A good thing too, as all the surveys of the public have been saying that the general public do not "get" the fares system as currently offered. Reforming fares now - after most other industries have moved to a dynamic pricing model - means that the railway can learn what, say, budget airlines learnt with their fares system and go one step better.

It is hardly going out on a limb to suggest that the reformed fares system will be realtime, totally interactive so you can book and rebook journeys as circumstances change, and unified so that all operators will be on the one service (since old-style franchising is no more). These are all bog-standard features on modern online services, and it is unlikely that the fares system will be different. I expect that we will have a choice of which app we want to interface with the service (Trainline, RailEurope et.al will no doubt want to keep reselling tickets) so I think everyone will be able to find a reseller whose system they are comfortable with.

The need to build up patronage after the pandemic mean the railway will most likely need to offer loss leaders. We can probably look forward to some spectacularly low fares to begin with!

 

[philthetube]

I very much doubt season ticket purchases will resume to any degree of normality ever again, but theoretically:

1) Majority of people (vast majority) with season tickets will travel on the same services to and from work, and will be able to pre-book a seat well in advance, days if not weeks, even months. There should be a refundable deposit for this in my view, although how you reclaim it (tapping in?) is anyone's guess.

The people who will be buying seasons are precisely the people who do not have regular hours, nurses, teachers, police, bus and train drivers, (loads of underground staff travel to London by rail) etc. none of who word the same shift pattern every week and none of who can be sure of finishing work when they are supposed to.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Is compulsory reservation also accompanied by a system to ensure people actually sit in their allocated seats?
I would estimate that every 5th time I have reserved a seat on a busy train, there is someone sat there already.

I can see that there are also circumstances where I may not want to sit in the booked seat. For example I would like to be able to move if I find myself sat next to someone in a cramped Pendolino seat when there are plenty of others free.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I would the prefer the old reservations recommend policy. It's totally non-committal and if somebody without a reservation complains,well they can't say they weren't told. A lot of long distance travellers do use advance purchase these days anyway complete with seat reservations. Still,there must still be a quota of seats left unreserved for other passengers. As in another post I do not want the confrontation about refusing a person/family travel for not having seat reservations. It's not fair on either side.

 

[robbeech]

If you don’t book a seat, you should expect the higher risk that you’ll have to stand for at least part of your journey. If you can accept this risk then I see no reason why you would ever need to have compulsory reservations on any regular train service.
In regular times, certain intercity trains are full, and certain ones are really quite empty, but they’ve always been that way and people accept that and stand up for their journey, even for several hours. They’ve often gone for a higher priced ticket with no seat reservation over a lower priced advance for a different train because their priority is getting that train at that specific time. Those with flexibility will benefit from lower prices and a seat.

What are the real benefits to PASSENGERS from compulsory reservations? The real ones, not the ones they tell you about. There won’t be more trains, or more seats on the trains they currently have, so you won’t have more chance of getting a seat unless you can change your travel time, which is no different to now. So no increase in number of people able to get a seat but an obvious potential DECREASE in the number of people that might be able to get to where they’re going AT ALL. How does this benefit the passenger?

With fewer passengers able to travel we will see reduced revenue. How will that be recovered do we think?

 

[STINT47]

With fewer passengers able to travel we will see reduced revenue. How will that be recovered do we think?

A move to completely dynamic pricing like an airline or Eurostar. If you remove the fixed walk up fares you can then charge whatever the market will pay for the busiest trains.

Yes there will be some outrageous fares but a wealthy businessman going to their holiday home in the West Country on a summer Saturday will just pay it.

This will also achive the aim of simplifying the fares system. No more silly names for tickets like super off peak with time restrictions. Just a price for each journey made on your chosen train. Members of the public who want fare simplification in the belief that theh will save money could be in for a shock when they next travel at holiday times.

The days of people travelling on relatively cheap walk up fares and clogging up the vestibules will be over. A benefit to the treasury and those with money, but at the detriment to those like me who believe the social benefits of affordable train travel is more important than the total in the fare box.

 

[plugwash]

And also a big loss for the environment as people who can't predict when they will return home decide to drive instead of risking having to pay a huge price for their return journey.