Concept for a creative usage of the A380 at slot-restricted airports.

[DavidBusDriver]

Hi all,

Know this might be a crazy idea, but in the airline world there are a lot of high frequency routes operated by multiple airlines, all of who are looking to reduce costs to increase the profitability.

In some of these cases, such as LHR-JFK, domestics and regionals in Japan/Asia etc, was thinking it might be an interesting concept to combine flights in a new unusual form of joint venture which takes code-sharing to a new kind of level.

Rather than sharing a code, and putting passengers onto another airlines aircraft with its different levels of service, attire, seating etc, why not operate an A380 as a joint venture, with one carrier having the upper deck and one carrier the lower deck, free to fit out as they wish. For safety reasons you clearly cannot physically separate the two decks, but I am just throwing this out there to any other aviation enthusiasts for opinions!

 

[WestCoast]

It's not unimaginable, but I don't think it would work in the near future for a couple of reasons;

-Unions in many parts of the world would object strongly (although it's less of a problem in Asia).
-On the likes of LHR-JFK, much of the revenue comes from the "big spenders" in Business Class and First Class, and indeed if you look at Emirates' configuration of the A380 - it's only First and Business on the top deck! So, in many cases, it may be difficult to also put a sizeable economy section in (all business class routes don't work in most mass mainstream markets, as has been proven by the failure of many airlines offering this service).
-Prestige Factors - even though BA and Iberia are the same company, they do have very different service standards and to be seen sharing an aircraft may be a step too far.
-Operational factors/joint ventures - remember than on LHR-JFK the aircraft has to "originate" on one side of the Atlantic and the crew has to nightstop in London or New York. Naturally, AA crew are usually based in JFK and BA crew at LHR. It will make more sense to operate at a certain time from JFK and at another time from LHR. By using one aircraft, you reduce the frequency and cause problems in terms of crewing.
-Frequency - it's hard to keep up a high frequency through amalgamation of flights. BA and AA's joint ventures relies on smaller aircraft to keep a "shuttle service" every couple of hours. Revenue is also shared.

From LHR, it would only really work operationally with BA and Virgin, who are also bitter rivals.

 

[Sun!]

Well several airlines already have full joint ventures. That is they share all profits (or indeed losses) on certain routes.

AA and BA/ Iberia JV on all Europe-USA routes. (So an AA flight from Dallas to Frankfurt will share any profit or losses with BA/Iberia)
Air France/ KLM and Alitalia with Delta JV also on all Europe-USA routes.

WestCoast is right on many points- the unions wouldnt like it and frequency is very important on routes like LHR-JFK/BOS et al. Though AA do have flight deck and cabin crew based full time in London (i.e they live and pay taxes in the UK) and BA in New York and a number of other places world wide.

 

[WestCoast]

Though AA do have flight deck and cabin crew based full time in London (i.e they live and pay taxes in the UK) and BA in New York and a number of other places world wide.

Actually, yes, you're right, but having said that the aircraft still has to be "based" on one side of the Atlantic for maintenance e.t.c, although with a joint venture I guess BA may be able to do AA's maintenance and vice versa (providing there isn't too much union objection - someone told me that BA are not allowed to do ground handling for AA at LHR because of the unions?!).

 

[SwindonPkwy]

If we are talking slot restricted airports, I am thinking LHR in 10 to 15 years time, IAG may not want to waste slots on a high frequency shuttle between LHR and BCN, for example. Add to this the fact that T3 and T5 are going to be linked by an airside tunnel. What better way to keep IB and BA products separate than to have the respective passengers check in at their own desks, board through different doors and, yes, sit on separate decks. Unlikely but not completely unimaginable.

 

[WestCoast]

If we are talking slot restricted airports, I am thinking LHR in 10 to 15 years time, IAG may not want to waste slots on a high frequency shuttle between LHR and BCN, for example. Add to this the fact that T3 and T5 are going to be linked by an airside tunnel. What better way to keep IB and BA products separate than to have the respective passengers check in at their own desks, board through different doors and, yes, sit on separate decks. Unlikely but not completely unimaginable.

Iberia has been granted the privellege of operating from T5. The shuttle is LHR to Madrid, rather than Barcelona, and it's about providing connections through there to South America, a growing market where BA has less of a presence.

 

[starrymarkb]

Plus LHR-MAD sees regular widebody use. (BA have 2x 767 per day and IB use an A340-600 on one of the busier runs)

Is tempted to do a Madrid run at some point...

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Sure, MAD is more likely than BCN but I think you get my point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My second scenario is a little less likely but not totally out of the question. Again, looking 10 to 15 years hence, Stansted may also be slot restricted. The only way for Ryanair to grow would be into new markets. So how about London to New York? For this enter Virgin Atlantic and their much delayed but newly delivered A380's; totally unsuitable for Virgin's niche market. Now, I don't know how well Mr Branson gets on with Mr O'Leary but I can imagine Virgin on the upper deck and Ryanair on the lower deck. The main problem would be the two stops in 'New York', one at JFK, the other in New Haven, Connecticut!!

 

[WestCoast]

My second scenario is a little less likely but not totally out of the question. Again, looking 10 to 15 years hence, Stansted may also be slot restricted. The only way for Ryanair to grow would be into new markets. So how about London to New York? For this enter Virgin Atlantic and their much delayed but newly delivered A380's; totally unsuitable for Virgin's niche market. Now, I don't know how well Mr Branson gets on with Mr O'Leary but I can imagine Virgin on the upper deck and Ryanair on the lower deck. The main problem would be the two stops in 'New York', one at JFK, the other in New Haven, Connecticut!!

Low cost long haul doesn't have a good record. Many have tried, but very few have succeeded. Zoom and Air Asia X all had large long haul low cost operations from the UK and they both seemed to flop (Zoom went bust). People are often willing to pay more for comfort on long-haul routes, taxes/staff/fuel costs are higher thus reducing margins and the "big spenders" in First and Business subside the Economy tickets. Ryanair Business Class might be interesting (they used to have it before O'Leary took charge and turned the airline into the cost stripping beast it is today!).

Ryanair is a short-haul airline and they will find areas to grow into, as soon as the likes of the Ukraine, the Balkans, Russia, North Africa, Turkey, Egypt e.t.c sign up to open skies deals with the EU, Ryanair will pounce. They've had tremendous success on their Morocco - Europe routes, especially with "ethnic traffic" from France and Belgium. Ryanair sees its future growth away from the UK & Ireland.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Ryanair sees its future growth away from the UK & Ireland.

Yes, agreed. They moved into Hungary pretty much overnight when Malev collapsed.

 

[starrymarkb]

Low cost long haul doesn't have a good record. Many have tried, but very few have succeeded. Zoom and Air Asia X all had large long haul low cost operations from the UK and they both seemed to flop (Zoom went bust). People are often willing to pay more for comfort on long-haul routes, taxes/staff/fuel costs are higher thus reducing margins and the "big spenders" in First and Business subside the Economy tickets. Ryanair Business Class might be interesting (they used to have it before O'Leary took charge and turned the airline into the cost stripping beast it is today!).

Ryanair is a short-haul airline and they will find areas to grow into, as soon as the likes of the Ukraine, the Balkans, Russia, North Africa, Turkey, Egypt e.t.c sign up to open skies deals with the EU, Ryanair will pounce. They've had tremendous success on their Morocco - Europe routes, especially with "ethnic traffic" from France and Belgium. Ryanair sees its future growth away from the UK & Ireland.

Plus with Air Asia X you could pay £500 for a 15 hour flight in a 9 abreast high density A340 with no IFE, no included meal or drinks and no included luggage allowance or £550 for 15 hours with Malaysian with IFE, Bags and Food included.