Concerned that staff at a particular LNW station may be extorting passengers

[ccityplanner12]

There is a very concerning culture to be observed in the gatestaff at a particular station on the WCML between Watford Junction and Tring which I'm not sure I can name for legal reasons.

I must also disclaim from guaranteeing perfect & complete factual accuracy of this post. I have had two recent intimidatory experiences there. The first was on a trip which I made on a Friday evening, coming back on Sunday, to attend a relatives wedding.

I was using a Watford Junction to Loughborough (Midland) Not via London Super off-peak Open Return which I had purchased from a commendably-mannered guard on the train departing Watford due to the machine refusing to sell Not via London tickets (I knew they were meant to be available having looked the fare up on a ticket machine elsewhere beforehand).

The restriction code on the ticket was printed as "C˩" (could be C1, Cl, Ci, CJ, something like that)

I got off the train at the offending station because it was a stopper to Tring & I needed to change in order to continue north. I had a 13-minute wait for my connection & my phone needed recharging, so I decided to go & find a socket somewhere.

When I got to the gateline I showed the woman manning it my ticket, & she told me "you're not coming through [station name]. I told her I had checked the validity of my ticket on the RDG website, so she decided to mount her second horse & tell me I wasn't allowed to break my journey on the outbound portion.

She then told me my ticket wasn't valid & only my removal of it from her hand prevented her from ripping it (I believe still have the ticket now, it is very crumpled from being fought over). She then claimed to have been assaulted & said she had called the police (which she hadn't).

She tried to have me removed from the station, but instead I went back to my platform (the disabled gate had been left open) & nothing else came of it. When I got on the next train I left a post-it note (shown in the first attached image) in the ventilation grille of the door to one of the middle cabs.

The next time I visited the to, I had Single from Watford Junction to that station. I had my ticket hand-checked to keep it from being swallowed, & this was done aggressively by a man who grabbed my ticket.

I took such umbrage that I went into the photo booth for 10 minutes & wrote a complaint on a post-it note (shown in the second attached image).

While I was in the photo booth I overheard two people having trouble with the gatestaff (of which there were 3 or 4 at this time).

The first was a Virgin Trains employee (or at least in a Virgin Trains t-shirt) who said it was people like them who were ruining his day / making him late / something similar. The second was a young person who was being asked his address. He was very confused, & the staff were beyond condescending to him. They had an air of sadistic triumphalism to their attitude that I'm sure they must share with medieval military plunderers.

The determination to fault me evidenced by the woman who first checked my ticket riding two horses, & the aggression shown to me the next time I was there, the joy with which the youth was dragooned, & the frequency of these negative encounters (they occurred every 5 minutes while I was there on a Saturday morning) lead me to believe there may be a chance that the staff are looking for invalid excuses to fine patrons, not recording the fines & trousering the cash for themselves.

The next time I visited the town, I took the train to a neighbouring station & walked in rather than suffer the sickening culture at the station there. I have never had any problem with staff on London Northwestern, West Midlands Trains or their predecessor London Midland, & most of their journeys have been flawless & enjoyable, except for those 2 times I used [redacted] station.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I’m not sure leaving post-it notes is likely to be a very effective way of giving feedback. If I’m honest, looking at the pictures of them, I doubt whether anyone would do anything other than put them in the bin, particularly given they were likely to be seen by cleaning staff who won’t have any interest in what they say.

 

[6Gman]

Some of the OP's other postings are a little strange. To be fair, he does refer to being autistic. But - a very odd account.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the record, CJ does allow Break of Journey on both portions and it is valid via Bletchley and Bedford (NRE gives me a non-split fare that way, anyway). So they had no business preventing you passing the barrier.

I would have written a letter or email to LNR complaining about this rather than scrawling on post-it notes in the photo booth.

 

[6Gman]

I got off the train at the offending station because it was a stopper to Tring & I needed to change in order to continue north. I had a 13-minute wait for my connection & my phone needed recharging, so I decided to go & find a socket somewhere.

Why, on a journey from Watford Junction to Loughborough via Bedford or Nuneaton, would it be necessary to change at a station between Watford Jn and Tring? Are there trains which stop at Hemel Hempstead but not at Watford?

And are there public charging sockets on LNW stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of the OP's other postings are a little strange. To be fair, he does refer to being autistic.

I did wonder that. Perhaps the railway needs to be more careful to ensure it follows its own rules, which in this case are that Break of Journey is permitted and the ticket is valid at that station; autistic people don't like it when rules are not followed properly, and this could perhaps be the basis of future claims of discrimination.

I wonder if the individual concerned might have had previous employment on the Euston gateline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why, on a journey from Watford Junction to Loughborough via Nuneaton, would it be necessary to change at a station between Watford Jn and Tring? Are there trains which stop at Hemel Hempstead but not at Watford?

That is not for the railway to question; Break of Journey is permitted on the ticket concerned, therefore the passenger can get off and exit the station at every station along the line of route if they so wish. This might be unusual but is perfectly allowed (and the likes of http://www.merseytart.com/ are written by people who go out of their way to do exactly that! ).

Even where Break of Journey is not permitted, this, by its traditional interpretation, does not prohibit changing as many times as you feel like without leaving the station (note that if there are any facilities past the gateline but on railway land you are entitled to exit it to use those, though at the station I think it is there aren't).

And are there public charging sockets on LNW stations?

No, but at both of the stations that it could be (I think I've worked out which one it is purely by the mention of a specific facility) there are places nearby like coffee places which are not averse to the use of their sockets.

 

[Darandio]

Some of the OP's other postings are a little strange. To be fair, he does refer to being autistic. But - a very odd account.

Indeed, probably explains it. Reading the whole post is something more akin to a novel than an account of events. It's just the use of certain things to provide an explanation made me wonder if it was a wind up.

 

[yorkie]

If you write a proper, concise complaint, and send me a direct message with the reference number, I could ask someone from West Midlands Trains to investigate.

I know of at least one retailer who would support you in any dispute, if you bought the ticket from them and were travelling in accordance with the itinerary, in the event that West Midlands Trains don't uphold your complaint, so it may be worth asking the retailer if they'll support you if applicable.

There's also the Ombudsman to refer it to if all else fails.

But leaving post-it notes isn't going to achieve anything.

By the way, you'll have less hassle, and a clearer contractual position, if you obtain an itinerary online when you purchase your ticket, and letting the booking site check the Routeing Guide for you, and giving you clear contractual evidence of validity.

 

[ccityplanner12]

To clarify, I have anger issues & leaving post-it notes is an anger management strategy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To clarify, I have anger issues & leaving post-it notes is an anger management strategy.

Ah, fair enough. Better than smacking someone in the teeth.

I'd suggest taking @yorkie up on his offer of assisting with a complaint, as the member of staff had no business to do anything other than let you through the gateline, as you were entitled to break your journey there if you so wished.

I've just checked again and there are also no evening peak time restrictions on using the ticket in the way you were using it.

 

[30907]

To clarify, I have anger issues & leaving post-it notes is an anger management strategy.

Thanks for the explanation.
Unfortunately, it slightly distracted from the actual issues you raised, and which Yorkie has responded to.

 

[Starmill]

Why, on a journey from Watford Junction to Loughborough via Bedford or Nuneaton, would it be necessary to change at a station between Watford Jn and Tring? Are there trains which stop at Hemel Hempstead but not at Watford?

I do not know if this is the question to be asking or what, but I will have a go. On Saturday night the 2131 London Euston to Birmingham New Street calls at Hemel Heampsted, Berkhamsted, Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley, but not Watford Junction.

 

[yorkie]

I can see how this escalated. I've been challenged when using tickets in a very normal way at stations where I've been told I am not permitted to break my journey and/or not permitted to use that route (even when I have been using the shortest route).

Some staff do behave as described in the opening post. I know this happens as I have witnessed such behaviour personally. Some people don't know how to react to such poor behaviour by staff and may not react in the best way, and this is particularly likely to affect people with autism and/or anger management issues.

I have experience of dealing with some very challenging individuals who actually are doing things wrong, but unfortunately some railway staff appear to have little or no training regarding how to handle situations in which they think someone is doing something wrong, and go about it in totally the wrong way.

It's true that some staff will make false allegations of assaults and threaten to call the police when a passenger robustly refutes a false allegation of breaking the terms of their ticket.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, the best thing to do is not to get angry, and just to calmly ask them what they think the rules are, and make notes (either in your head to write later or you could jot them down at the time, though some staff dislike the latter). Whether you agree to pay any amount they falsely claim is due or not, depends on the specific circumstances, but whatever you do, don't react badly because they could make false allegations against you and I've seen that happen.

The notes should be written up as a clear and concise (not rambling) letter. For example:

Dear Sir/Madam,

On <date> I purchased a ticket from Watford Junction to Loughborough routed not via London.

This fare is valid via <Station> and allows break of journey.

I broke my outward journey at <Station> at <time> and your member of staff (<Name / description>) refused to allow me through as they stated <Insert quote>, ie. denying my right to break my journey.

I would like to request that this complaint is passed on to the relevant manager, so that the staff member concerned is made aware of their error and given appropriate training regarding the validity of tickets.

Can you please provide me assurances that if I make this journey again, all reasonable efforts will be made to ensure that I will be allowed to break my journey at <Station>?

Yours faithfully,​

I'm sure others could tweak this, but this is just a first draft off the top of my head.

No need to mention the Routeing Guide.