Concessionary pass validity times

[Zoe]

I have read some reports of people with concessionary passes who have been unable to use last service of the day (unless they pay the fare) since the pass is not valid after 11 PM on Mondays to Fridays (except London or if the area chooses to allow extra validity at their discretion) and in quite a few areas the last bus leaves just after 11 PM. I can understand that the pass is not valid before 9:30 AM on weekdays since the scheme covers off peak travel but why end validity at 11 PM on weekdays? Was it assumed that there would be no buses after 11 PM or is there some special reason why they don't want people using passes on the last services of the day? If the last buses of the day are very busy and so they don't want overcrowding then it's strange that the 11 PM rule doesn't apply on Saturday evening when I'd have thought the buses would be very busy. Looking at the legislation, it seems that on Fridays if the service continues beyond midnight then you can use the pass up until 11 PM and after midnght (since you are now into Saturday) but not between 11 PM and midnight. If this one hour blackout period was intentional then I'm not quite sure the reason for this. On Sundays the pass is valid up to midnight but if you are lucky enough to have a bus after midnight then you can't use the pass as you are now into Monday.

 

[starrymarkb]

A lot of night buses are flat/premium fare? Might this be the reason that they are excluded and some last buses are just caught in it.

It's something that would have to be raised with Central Government. TBH the scheme has a lot of problems, but I can't see the current government being too willing to sort them out (unless they panic near Election time)

 

[Zoe]

A lot of night buses are flat/premium fare? Might this be the reason that they are excluded and some last buses are just caught in it.

If that's the case then the rule should apply beyond midnight into Saturday mornining and after 11 PM on Saturday evening into Sunday morning as in many areas these are the only times night buses run. However the rule only applies on weekdays when not many night buses run and as I said above, on Friday evenings there is the situation where there is a period of 1 hour where you can't use your pass but you can use it after midnight once into Saturday when night buses would be running.

 

[sonic2009]

But there are some buses which are not.night buses and not premium fare.

For example the 144 Birmingham - Worcester has its last journey at 2145 Monday - Thursday & Friday and Saturdays last journey is 2320.

I know you can on some routes where there is a infrequent service use a concessionary pass before 9:30am.

Normally will be advertised with a CP in the timetable header.

 

[bb21]

I agree that it is nonsensical. Luckily in Leicester it would appear that operators do allow people to use their pass after 2300, until the last bus. It is not as if there is a huge passenger flow during the week at that time of the day anyway, with the possible exception of Friday nights.

 

[ModernRailways]

Up here in tyne and wear, Nexus says in publications that travel isn't allowed, but the bus companies and Nexus do in fact let people on since if they don't they could be leaving behind someone who is disabled or an elderly person.

I remember Huw Lewis saying something along the lines of 'It doesn't cost too much to cover these extra trips which are only done by a handful of people. We (Nexus) would rather everyone got home safely than being left behind and being made to either get a taxi or have to walk.'

I'll see if I can find the actual quote.

Edit*

Found it.

We feel that, while the Government only requires us to fund concessionary travel until 11pm, that it is preferable to allow people to travel home when they wish. As we have provided smart ticket readers to all local buses we can measure this very accurately; these journeys account for less than 1 in every 1,000 journeys by older and disabled passengers so the cost is relatively small, and if we did impose a ‘curfew’ the chances are many of the same people would just travel home one bus earlier." - See more at: http://www.nexus.org.uk/3-issues-service-23-taxi-buses-night-time-subsidy#sthash.UzJxHWMI.dpuf

 

[bb21]

I remember Huw Lewis saying something along the lines of 'It doesn't cost too much to cover these extra trips which are only done by a handful of people. We (Nexus) would rather everyone got home safely than being left behind and being made to either get a taxi or have to walk.'

That is a sensible approach. The amount these additional journeys cost hardly matters that much in the grand scheme of things tbh.

 

[34D]

The (english) national rules are 09:30 to 23:00 mon-fri, and any time weekend/bank holiday.

Personally I wish that these times were rigidly enforced nationally, instead of various areas having their own (different) rules.

We have a separate thread elsewhere that lists the enhancements FOR VISITORS FROM OTHER PARTS OF ENGLAND.

 

[Zoe]

The (english) national rules are 09:30 to 23:00 mon-fri, and any time weekend/bank holiday.

Personally I wish that these times were rigidly enforced nationally, instead of various areas having their own (different) rules.

If the rule is strictly enforced then you end up with the situations as described above where people are unable to use the last service of the day, I can't see what the justification is for excluding these services. In London the National legislation requires that passes by accepted until 4:30 AM the next day so I'm not quite sure why this wasn't used as the national rule.

 

[34D]

If the rule is strictly enforced then you end up with the situations as described above where people are unable to use the last service of the day, I can't see what the justification is for excluding these services. In London the National legislation requires that passes by accepted until 4:30 AM the next day so I'm not quite sure why this wasn't used as the national rule.

No. London enhances the national rules at its own choice/cost.

Please explain to me what is wrong with the twirlies being required to pay for their journey home? They get everything else free

If they are copus mentis enough to go out on the beer then they're copus mentis enough to pay for the bus home.

 

[ModernRailways]

No. London enhances the national rules at its own choice/cost.

Please explain to me what is wrong with the twirlies being required to pay for their journey home? They get everything else free

If they are copus mentis enough to go out on the beer then they're copus mentis enough to pay for the bus home.

You should also remember that Nexus (Tyne and Wear's transport people) do an All Day pass for those who work or are in full time education. Some people may be using those to get home.

The cost is minor and as mentioned is it worth stranding those people who are disabled or elderly? You could also argue that by not enforcing the restriction people are more likely to spend more money in a bar as they don't have to worry about getting the bus before 11pm. This could mean more money is brought into the local economy and as such means that it balances back out overall.

 

[Zoe]

No. London enhances the national rules at its own choice/cost.

The 2007 Act requires London to provide free travel to London residents covered by the scheme until 0430 the next day. They couldn't start charging London residents after 11 PM on weekdays even if they wanted to. For passes outside London though, the normal rules apply so I should not have referred to the 2007 Act as National legilsation. London has however decided to go beyond this and allow travel at any time including the morning peak for all passes.

Please explain to me what is wrong with the twirlies being required to pay for their journey home? They get everything else free

If they are copus mentis enough to go out on the beer then they're copus mentis enough to pay for the bus home.

I doubt the purpose of the rule was to force them to pay if they have been out for the evening. If it had been then I'd have expected the 11 PM rule to apply 7 days a week. If on Friday evening they are lucky enough to have a bus after midnight then they can still get a free trip by waiting an hour.

As for saying what's wrong with requiring them to pay for a journey home after an evening out, if they should be made to pay then then free travel should end earlier at say 8:30 PM (and apply 7 days a week) so that they would all pay after spending the evening out rather than in coming down to if the last bus happens to leave before or after 11 PM. The purporse of concessionary travel was to provide free travel off peak, it's understandable that the passes are not valid during the morning peak but I still don't see what the purpose of ending conscessionary travel at 11 PM on weekdays is and for the reasons stated above, I very much doubt it has anything to do with not wanting pensioners to get a free trip home after an evening out.

 

[neilmc]

London is required to accept passes until 0430 the next day by the national legislation. However I shoud have said, this only applies to London residents. London has however decided to go beyond this and allow travel at any time including the morning peak for all passes.


I doubt the purpose of the rule was to force them to pay if they have been out for the evening. If it had been then I'd have expected the 11 PM rule to apply 7 days a week. If on Friday evening they are lucky enough to have a bus after midnight then they can still get a free trip by waiting an hour.

As for saying what's wrong with forcing them to pay for a journey home after an evening out, if they should be made to pay then then free travel should end earlier at say 8:30 PM (and apply 7 days a week) so that they would all pay after spending the evening out rather than in coming down to if the last bus happens to leave before or after 11 PM. The purporse of concessionary travel was to provide free travel off peak, it's understandable that the passes are not valid during the morning peak but I still don't see what the purpose of ending conscessionary travel at 11 PM on weekdays is and for the reasons stated above, I very much doubt it has anything to do with not wanting pensioners to get a free trip home after an evening out.

That's a great point which I'd never considered - I live on an all-night bus service and the idea of pensioners having to let the Friday night service at 23:09 and 23:39 go in order to travel free on the first Saturday bus at 00:09 is a bizarre loophole. However GMPT appear to have thought of this and apply the cutoff at midnight on weekdays so the situation doesn't arise in Greater Manchester. Maybe whoever drafted the legislation didn't think there were any buses after 23:00?

 

[Zoe]

That's a great point which I'd never considered - I live on an all-night bus service and the idea of pensioners having to let the Friday night service at 23:09 and 23:39 go in order to travel free on the first Saturday bus at 00:09 is a bizarre loophole. However GMPT appear to have thought of this and apply the cutoff at midnight on weekdays so the situation doesn't arise in Greater Manchester. Maybe whoever drafted the legislation didn't think there were any buses after 23:00?

I still wonder what the purpose of having such an early cutoff in Manchester is though considering midnight is still hours before the start of the peak and there could even be some regular day routes still running. Looking at the TFGM website, it does say that on weekdays midnight to 9:30 AM is classes as peak which is quite a long peak period and wouldn't have though the normal weekday peak demand period would have started until at least 6 AM. The highest demand in the period midnight to 6 AM would be early Saturday and Sunday morning when concessionary passes are valid.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

First Glasgow doesn't allow the use of concession passes between the hours of 0100 - 0430.

However I don't think buses during the week run after 1am, it's just at the weekends when the night buses are running. It's the same with Lothian Buses with concession passes not allowed to be used on Night Services.

 

[Zoe]

First Glasgow doesn't allow the use of concession passes between the hours of 0100 - 0430.

Interesting, the Transport Scotland website says that the passes are valid at any time (unlike in England) so I wonder what grounds these services are excluded on.

 

[overthewater]

Interesting, the Transport Scotland website says that the passes are valid at any time (unlike in England) so I wonder what grounds these services are excluded on.

Because the bus service during that time are Premium services. Even Stagecoach make it clear all " N " are not allowed the passes. a few stagecoach service do operate after midnight, and the passes are valid

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Interesting, the Transport Scotland website says that the passes are valid at any time (unlike in England) so I wonder what grounds these services are excluded on.

This is from the Transport Scotland T&C's...

'There are only a small number of services on which your National Entitlement Card cannot be used, for example premium fare night buses and City Sightseeing Buses'.

So it must apply to all Scottish operators that run night services.

Although bus passes can be used on suburban rail services with Glasgow and the surrounding area, not free travel but a concession single is 90p. And concession card holders can use their pass on the subway, yet again not free but a single costs 80p.

 

[34D]

I agree that a time such as 20:30 seems sensible. The purpose of the scheme is (in my view) to let people get to the shops, and have the odd day out. If this means that people going to the theatre or for an evening on the beer have to pay for their bus home, then I am happy with that.

 

[overthewater]

What if people are visiting friends? going to social clubs which only happen in the evening? or that weekly trip to the bingo hall.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I wonder if whatever council Carlisle comes under has an agreement with the Scottish Government, as you can use a Scottish bus pass on say for example the X95 from Edinburgh to Carlisle, but not actually use it when you enter into Carlisle on any English bus service.

 

[overthewater]

I wonder if whatever council Carlisle comes under has an agreement with the Scottish Government, as you can use a Scottish bus pass on say for example the X95 from Edinburgh to Carlisle, but not actually use it when you enter into Carlisle on any English bus service.

Scottish Goverment pays for travel into Carlisle, Same apply to Berwick. Reason being is a few big villages are closer to the English towns than Scottish towns.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree that a time such as 20:30 seems sensible. The purpose of the scheme is (in my view) to let people get to the shops, and have the odd day out. If this means that people going to the theatre or for an evening on the beer have to pay for their bus home, then I am happy with that.

Your time of final usage time of 20:30 above should also consider that from that time, until the officially allowed later time, there is not the same travel demand either by rail, bus or tram than there is during the peak travel periods.

Incidentally, is the railway "Evening Rover" ticket in the TfGM area (which is exterior to my own area) still available to rail travellers of all ages in the TfGM area, as that covered the time period in question to allow social events stated in your posting. Such a ticket would never have been allowed if there was not seen to be space available on the rail services in question.

 

[david16]

In Scotland, Scottish Ciylink and megabus allow free distance travel on coach for pensioners and disabled passengers with the national entitlement card, yet in many parts of Scotland that has access to the train in their area for distance travel but not the coach pensioners or disabled passengers even with the national entitlement card when travelling by train have to pay the full fare.

There's a total disparity there. Maybe it's time for the Scottish government to look at it and have a small charge (I.e £2.00 day fare) for pensioners and disabled people to unlimited travel by coach on Citylink and Megabus but also to include unlimited travel by scotrail as well.
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I agree that a time such as 20:30 seems sensible. The purpose of the scheme is (in my view) to let people get to the shops, and have the odd day out. If this means that people going to the theatre or for an evening on the beer have to pay for their bus home, then I am happy with that.

But these bus passes are being used by pensioners the same way as a standard paid unlimited travel ticket is being used by a fare paying adult.

I highly doubt there's lots of old ladies regularly doing £10 to £20 journeys per day as free rides with their passes.

 

[34D]

What if people are visiting friends? going to social clubs which only happen in the evening? or that weekly trip to the bingo hall.

What is so unusual about them paying for one way? Many operators do special pensioner tickets for mornings.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Maybe whoever drafted the legislation didn't think

With the huge amount of money some bus companies are loosing because of the scheme, maybe so.
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Scottish Goverment pays for travel into Carlisle, Same apply to Berwick. Reason being is a few big villages are closer to the English towns than Scottish towns.

Same as Cheshire card holders can use theirs into / out of Wales, but not for onward travel entirely within the principality.
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I highly doubt there's lots of old ladies regularly doing £10 to £20 journeys per day as free rides with their passes.

Coastliner, Transpeak, etc.

 

[Deerfold]

That's a great point which I'd never considered - I live on an all-night bus service

Really? That sounds very impractical

and the idea of pensioners having to let the Friday night service at 23:09 and 23:39 go in order to travel free on the first Saturday bus at 00:09 is a bizarre loophole. However GMPT appear to have thought of this and apply the cutoff at midnight on weekdays so the situation doesn't arise in Greater Manchester. Maybe whoever drafted the legislation didn't think there were any buses after 23:00?

There seem to be a lot of areas which allow use up until midnight - certainly more than allow (general) earlier travel than 0930.

I used to live near a route which only ran 3 times a day with the first one being around 0900 which had a special dispensation for these passes to be accepted - however now it's been improved to a generally hourly service the 0900 is no longer valid for the pass. It was slightly annoying as I couldn't use the adult all day bus ticket on it which was also valid from 0930 - though that is now valid all day...

 

[david16]

With the huge amount of money some bus companies are loosing because of the scheme, maybe so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Same as Cheshire card holders can use theirs into / out of Wales, but not for onward travel entirely within the principality.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Coastliner, Transpeak, etc.

But surely most of the time they are all doing standard journeys like the working age passengers do with their paid for equivalent.

Sometimes you need to make more than just the one each way journey using the one bus each way. And that's not just the free passes used by pensioners. Surely pensioners are entitled to make the occasional day out here and there to another town with their concession passes. The same way as the under 60's use their unlimited travel annual season tickets they've paid the bus company for albeit for travel in a much more restricted travel area than the over 60's.

To go back to the days where all over 16's pay an adult single fare to the driver every time they board a bus with there being no unlimited travel bus fares on offer would be a return to the dark ages.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

But surely most of the time they are all doing standard journeys like the working age passengers do with their paid for equivalent.

Sometimes you need to make more than just the one each way journey using the one bus each way. And that's not just the free passes used by pensioners. Surely pensioners are entitled to make the occasional day out here and there to another town with their concession passes. The same way as the under 60's use their unlimited travel annual season tickets they've paid the bus company for albeit for travel in a much more restricted travel area than the over 60's.

To go back to the days where all over 16's pay an adult single fare to the driver every time they board a bus with there being no unlimited travel bus fares on offer would be a return to the dark ages.

I'm all in favour of the pass, I have one.
However, I think the bus operators are getting a raw deal, and should be getting a far higher % of the money being lost to free travel.

 

[Zoe]

I'm all in favour of the pass, I have one.
However, I think the bus operators are getting a raw deal, and should be getting a far higher % of the money being lost to free travel.

Is it a simple case of for every passenger that uses a pass, the bus company loses the fare that would have been charged for the journey? Some of the passengers would likely have used alternative transport if they had to pay so I'm not sure how the loss in revenue is calculated.