Condition 19(b) and London Terminals

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ainsworth74

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I'm sure we're probably familiar with Condition 19(b) but for anyone who isn't here is Condition 19 in full with (b) highlighted:

19. Using a combination of tickets

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.​

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or

(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days

and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

Now my question relates to combining tickets where one has a destination of 'London Terminals' and the other has an origin of 'London Terminals' and they are used at different terminals (e.g. one ticket is used to travel into Kings Cross and the next, separate, ticket is used from Euston).

Does a combination like this still satisfy Condition 19(b) and therefore can still be treated as a singe journey or is it now two separate journeys? This would be of particular relevance in the calculation of entitlement to Delay Repay as if it counts as one journey then both tickets should be included in any calculation but if its separate journeys then only one ticket should be included.

There is no concern over break of journey or similar as Condition 16 allows you to join a train at another station and not have that count as break of journey:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:

(i) join a train at another station, or

(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or

(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff.​

Thoughts?
 
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dquebec

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Separate journeys, surely. You have a gap crossing London. If one of the tickets was to Zone U1 London etc, you'd have a through ticket IMO, but the combination you mention does not cover your entire journey.
 

Hadders

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Separate journeys, surely. You have a gap crossing London. If one of the tickets was to Zone U1 London etc, you'd have a through ticket IMO, but the combination you mention does not cover your entire journey.

I sort of agree but what about a walking connection, eg Kings Cross to St Pancras?
 

ainsworth74

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Two journeys, since the wording in 19 (b) is 'calls at a station' (singular).

Yeah that tends to be the way I'm leaning at the moment but I figured I'd call upon the gathered wisdom of this fair website.

Though I do think the Zone U1 idea is interesting but I think it falls down in the same way (plus what about walking interchanges as Hadders said).

Anybody else got any thoughts?
 

Haywain

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It is a bit of a grey area, but I see no reason why they shouldn't be considered as one journey if there is clear evidence of why they do not join (for instance, already holding a Travelcard season, or not needing to use rail transport for the interchange as in the Kings Cross to St Pancras example). However, we have seen on the forum that the TOCs do not necessarily see things in the same light and may need pushing to see a through journey or just may not agree. I don't think that condition 19 is hugely helpful in this case as the DR payment is more about what your destination is considered to be and simply having tickets to get there.
 

Hadders

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Another curve ball is using Oyster PAYG between the different terminals to link up the journeys (or a paper ticket if you really wanted to pay over the odds).

Isn't there something in the Advance Fares FAQs about having to get the Oyster journey history validated if delayed on the underground to allow travel on a later train?
 

maniacmartin

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I would consider them to join, because some journey planners are happy to give you an itinerary that starts with a walk on the official list of interchanges. However, I can see that some TOCs may take a different view.
 

Starmill

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I think they do join up in at least some cases. There are times when you might end up using the same station, for example if your journey were Redhill to Stone Crossing if you used a single from Redhill to London Terminals and another from London Terminals to Stone Crossing, changing at London Bridge.

In other station groups it's typically accepted that this counts as one journey too and you are permitted to walk between them by the journey planner, using an official walking interchange.

There is some confusion over the issue, but it wouldn't be the Railway if there weren't!

Trainsplit will offer tickets for one journey in this fashion.

Two journeys, since the wording in 19 (b) is 'calls at a station' (singular).

I think this is a misnomer if one may finish one's journey and then immediately commence a journey from the same station, with the walk that ATOC seem to think we are obliged to make in some cases.
 
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najaB

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There is some confusion over the issue, but it wouldn't be the Railway if there weren't!

Trainsplit will offer tickets for one journey in this fashion.
The fact that one, unofficial, website sold you it won't necessarily hold much water if a TOC disagrees.
I think this is a misnomer if one may finish one's journey and then immediately commence a journey from the same station, with the walk that ATOC seem to think we are obliged to make in some cases.
Not entirely sure what you mean by this, but it would be difficult to make the argument that Kings Cross and Paddington are 'a station'. Not saying it's right, just reading what it says and thinking about how the arguments would go in a court.
 

maniacmartin

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Not entirely sure what you mean by this, but it would be difficult to make the argument that Kings Cross and Paddington are 'a station'. Not saying it's right, just reading what it says and thinking about how the arguments would go in a court.

I don't think you would need to make that argument though. I would argue it along the lines that the station I switch tickets at is Kings Cross. I then use the second ticket from Kings Cross, starting with a walk (TRANSFER) from the eNRT data. It's not the strongest argument though.
 

najaB

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I don't think you would need to make that argument though. I would argue it along the lines that the station I switch tickets at is Kings Cross. I then use the second ticket from Kings Cross, starting with a walk (TRANSFER) from the eNRT data. It's not the strongest argument though.
I can see that working for Kings Cross - Euston/St Pancras, but not sure the TOCs would buy it for a proper cross-London transfer.
 
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