Condition 19 - under 5s, F&F Railcard and season tickets...

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LexyBoy

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Let's say I want to take my daughter (who is under 5) for a day out in Bristol, travelling from Reading.

I hold a season ticket between Reading and Didcot, and Off Peak Day Return tickets Didcot-Bristol, discounted with a Family and Friends Railcard, for 1 adult + 1 child.

Do I have to travel on a train which calls at Didcot?
 
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No. You hold two sets of ticket/s which cover the entire journey you are making for both you and your daughter. One of the tickets is a season ticket and the other tickets are not. Therefore Condition 19 applies and your train does not have to call at Didcot.
 

MikeWh

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Let's say I want to take my daughter (who is under 5) for a day out in Bristol, travelling from Reading.

I hold a season ticket between Reading and Didcot, and Off Peak Day Return tickets Didcot-Bristol, discounted with a Family and Friends Railcard, for 1 adult + 1 child.

Do I have to travel on a train which calls at Didcot?
No. You hold two sets of ticket/s which cover the entire journey you are making for both you and your daughter. One of the tickets is a season ticket and the other tickets are not. Therefore Condition 19 applies and your train does not have to call at Didcot.
I'm not sure that I'd be so certain. For LexyBoy it is clear, a season and a non-season means the train doesn't have to stop. For the daughter, she doesn't need a ticket, but to get the discount on the second leg for LexyBoy she has to buy a child ticket. Given that the child ticket is required to validate the adult one, are we sure that under 5s travelling free can be considered equivalent to a season?
 

snail

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No. You hold two sets of ticket/s which cover the entire journey you are making for both you and your daughter. One of the tickets is a season ticket and the other tickets are not. Therefore Condition 19 applies and your train does not have to call at Didcot.
He doesn't have tickets for his daughter covering the entire journey. To Didcot she travels free; from Didcot she has a F&F discounted Child ticket. The OP has an adult discounted F&F ticket from Didcot.

It's an interesting dilemma, and I don't know the answer!
 

MichaelAMW

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No. You hold two sets of ticket/s which cover the entire journey you are making for both you and your daughter. One of the tickets is a season ticket and the other tickets are not. Therefore Condition 19 applies and your train does not have to call at Didcot.
But that is not the case for his daughter, who goes free as an accompanied child Reading to Didcot and then on the F & F ticket thence to Bristol. It depends on whether you view her ticket from Reading to Didcot to be his season ticket - if so, all is OK, as you say.
 

All Line Rover

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But that is not the case for his daughter, who goes free as an accompanied child Reading to Didcot and then on the F & F ticket thence to Bristol. It depends on whether you view her ticket from Reading to Didcot to be his season ticket - if so, all is OK, as you say.
Considering she does not require a ticket from Reading to Didcot OR Didcot to Bristol, it is only logical to conclude that she should be considered as holding a "ticket" (albeit an invisible one from Reading to Didcot) for the entire journey. LexyBoy still has a valid ticket for the entire journey as on the latter portion, his ticket is validated by having his daughter with him.

The worst that could happen would be an excess - from £17.85 (1 adult and 1 child with a Railcard) to £21 (1 adult).
 

hairyhandedfool

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I can't see there being a big issue onboard, but I think there is a potential issue with the eligibility of the adult to the railcard discount if the train does not stop at Didcot.

The child can travel without a ticket and so any change to the discounted ticket could apply at the next stop, but the child ticket itself would not be valid until then. This leaves the debate as would the adult be entitled to the railcard discount between Didcot and the next stop on the service?. I don't think the conditions were designed with this eventuality in mind.

Railcard website said:
....However, if the only child in the group is under five, you'll need to purchase a discounted child ticket to qualify for the adult Railcard discount. All child fares are subject to a £1 minimum fare....
This suggests that the child doesn't necessarily need a ticket to be valid as such. I think it would be quite harsh for a guard/RPI to pull you up on this.
 

Flamingo

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Interesting one, from a practical point of view I would be VERY surprised if anyone pulled you up on it, if for no other reason than the complexity of working out the correct answer.

I can't.
 

island

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In my opinion this is valid. Your daughter does not need a ticket for any of the journey, and your combination of tickets is a valid combination (Railcard aside). As you have purchased a CHFAM ticket you meet the minimum group size for the F&F Railcard.

I was about to post that your daughter could be charged an SOS from RDG-SWI, but then realised how silly that was.
 

bb21

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In my opinion this is valid. Your daughter does not need a ticket for any of the journey, and your combination of tickets is a valid combination (Railcard aside). As you have purchased a CHFAM ticket you meet the minimum group size for the F&F Railcard.

I was about to post that your daughter could be charged an SOS from RDG-SWI, but then realised how silly that was.
I think you are right.

I'm afraid that this one might come down to the principle that "if the rules do not say that it cannot be done, then it can".
 

LexyBoy

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Thanks for the thoughts. I'm not so sure myself- my gut feeling is that it may not be valid but can't think of a convincing reason why not. In any case, it's likely to remain an academic question as the trains we'd use all do call at Didcot. Plus it's cheaper to split again at Swindon so the saving on the DID-SWI ticket is only pennies against buying an undiscounted ticket for me alone.
I was about to post that your daughter could be charged an SOS from RDG-SWI, but then realised how silly that was.
I'd be more worried that *I* would be, though it's unlikely!

 

34D

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Wow, what a good question.

I suppose we're asking "are all newborn babies granted a free 5 year all line season ticket?

I'd be tempted to put the scenario to FGW and see if they'll reply either way.
 

b0b

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I suppose we're asking "are all newborn babies granted a free 5 year all line season ticket?
I don't think thats right, they're only granted what their accompanied adult has in terms of a ticket.
 

John @ home

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are all newborn babies granted a free 5 year all line season ticket?
I don't think thats right, they're only granted what their accompanied adult has in terms of a ticket.
Condition 5 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage makes it clear that
Up to two children under five years of age may travel free of charge with a passenger holding a ticket or other authority to travel.
But I can find nothing in the contract which states that the "passenger" must be an adult.
 

kieron

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I don't think thats right, they're only granted what their accompanied adult has in terms of a ticket.
I suppose the distinction between that and having an All Line Rover lies in what a guard or RPI can do if an accompanied child under five attempts to travel without a valid ticket. Are there any regulations which can be enforced against anyone in this situation, when the child is responsible for neither her actions nor any debts she accrues?
 

kieron

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Shall I send my toddler on a train on his own, and see what happens?
I'm thinking of the situation where an adult and a toddler travel together without a valid ticket between them. The adult could be penalised for his or her own actions, but I don't know if any action can be taken with regard to the toddler's.
 

tony_mac

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It's my opinion that the child does not hold a valid ticket between Didcot and Swindon on a train that has not stopped at Didcot. And so, if the child's ticket is not valid, the adult ticket cannot be used on its own for this portion of the journey.

I imagine that most train managers would scratch their head, then probably decide they might as well accept it.
 
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snail

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I kind of agree with that but would phrase it differently - the child doesn't need a ticket for any part of the journey if travelling with an adult holding a valid ticket. Here, the valid adult ticket is dependent on having a child accompanying them on the discounted portion of the trip, i.e. from Didcot. The adult journey is ok, for the reasons previously stated, but I don't think it is legitimate to commence the child journey unless the train stops at the originating station.

I concur though that in practice it's probably too complicated for a train manager to bother with.
 
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