• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Confirmation of rolling stock changes at Southeastern, including 707s

Status
Not open for further replies.

rdlover777

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2014
Messages
450
Location
Kent
Most days? In the summer period they were very prevalent on the Chatham mainline specials yes, but beyond that they were/are limited to the following I can recall:

- Dover Priory and Canterbury East services (stopper to Medway, semi-fast to Dover and vice-versa): 465/9+466 on some midweek services, lone 465 (although I have seen 2x before) on one of 5 sets on Saturdays. For Canterbury East the last 2 services of the day stops short at CBE, again 465/9+466, and one allocation on Sundays when engineering works actually allow any mainline services to run full length. There is also one CST-FAV 6 car peak working that is non-stop to Rochester.
- Sheerness two peak workings each way of 6 car, but otherwise everything else Networker based stops short at Rochester or Gillingham, while nothing regular is typically 10 car and/or goes along the Thanet coast.

Unless of course things have changed in the current climate that I haven't seen (I'm happy to be corrected if this is the case).
i see the Networkers most days when i walk my dog, always in a 10 car formation
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
I mean you get two choices. Replacing a proportion of the fleet (376s cascaded out and 465/2 465/9 and 466 scrapped) gives breathing space so the remaining 97 465/0s can be scrapped if the Crossrail extension comes which no doubt will free up an equivalent of 30 circuits if it goes to Rainham, Gravesend and Dartford at a reasonable frequency. Got to keep things in perspective.
Any Crossrail extension will be years/decades away, no way will the Networker replacement wait that long. The 30 707s may replace the 466s and a few of the worst 465s, but is mainly needed for fleet growth. That still leaves the 376s and the remaining 465s, that's a massive order which will dwarf the 707 fleet. Which surely makes more sense long term to be with GTR anyway seeing that they already operate the 700s and 717s?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,438
Location
Yorkshire
Just a gentle reminder that this thread is regarding Class 707s for Southeastern :)
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
The 30 707s may replace the 466s and a few of the worst 465s, but is mainly needed for fleet growth.

Fleet growth as in same number of trains but with more carriages, or as in more trains? If the latter, are there any spare paths / terminal capacity?
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Most days? In the summer period they were very prevalent on the Chatham mainline specials yes, but beyond that they were/are limited to the following I can recall:

- Dover Priory and Canterbury East services (stopper to Medway, semi-fast to Dover and vice-versa): 465/9+466 on some midweek services, lone 465 (although I have seen 2x before) on one of 5 sets on Saturdays. For Canterbury East the last 2 services of the day stops short at CBE, again 465/9+466, and one allocation on Sundays when engineering works actually allow any mainline services to run full length. There is also one CST-FAV 6 car peak working that is non-stop to Rochester.
- Sheerness two peak workings each way of 6 car, but otherwise everything else Networker based stops short at Rochester or Gillingham, while nothing regular is typically 10 car and/or goes along the Thanet coast.

Unless of course things have changed in the current climate that I haven't seen (I'm happy to be corrected if this is the case).

As I understand it, any workings to Ashford via Tonbridge or Maidstone and to Dover etc via Longfield are realistically now just for crew traction retention by giving the diagrams. Enough 375s and 377s go to stabling during the day to make the off-peak stuff non-465 where needed and especially on weekends.

Worth saying as we move on I’m sure very little main line work will be 465.
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Just a gentle reminder that this thread is regarding Class 707s for Southeastern :)

Any chance of a rename of thread to something like “Southeastern fleet developments including 707s” as you naturally discuss the new stock and discuss effects on existing.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,969
Location
Taunton or Kent
As I understand it, any workings to Ashford via Tonbridge or Maidstone and to Dover etc via Longfield are realistically now just for crew traction retention by giving the diagrams. Enough 375s and 377s go to stabling during the day to make the off-peak stuff non-465 where needed and especially on weekends.

Worth saying as we move on I’m sure very little main line work will be 465.
As I understand it (I maybe wrong) I don't think there are currently any passenger workings to Ashford either route of Networker formation (ECS runs may still exist), unless in future the 707 arrivals do see some sets pushed back out onto them (not sure how though). They definitely maintain peak workings as far as Maidstone.

I was under the impression Networkers to Dover were for crew traction retention, especially the one unit allocated for Saturdays, where I imagine a 375 would be available if not for that retention purpose. The weekday morning services come straight out of peak runs that I imagine 375s are not available to operate, so Networkers have to keep doing them until replacement stock and/or a change in service destination allows for alternative Dover stock. The 465s tend to do the stopping part of the service better than 375s, but of course the lower top speed fairs less in comparison east of the Medway towns.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
2,276
Location
SW London
They actually were declared surplus to requirements by FMTR long before they entered service - but IIRC SWT had started testing them by the handover day.

A pair of them did run in passenger service, for one day only, in the last month of SWT operation.
They then disappeared for the duration of the Waterloo blockade, and by the time that was over SWR had taken over ythe franchise.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Fleet growth as in same number of trains but with more carriages, or as in more trains? If the latter, are there any spare paths / terminal capacity?
Presumably lengthening existing trains, unless the Hayes branch if "Bakerlooed" I don't think there are any more paths available
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
A pair of them did run in passenger service, for one day only, in the last month of SWT operation.
They then disappeared for the duration of the Waterloo blockade, and by the time that was over SWR had taken over ythe franchise.
Thanks for the reminder, yes and was that to meet some sort of contractural deadline for Siemens?
 

ValleyLines142

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2011
Messages
6,844
Location
Gloucester
Whilst I will miss the 707s, I do think they'll be highly beneficial to Southeastern. They're comfortable, spacious, and perfect for commute routes in and out of London. They can take quite a lot of standees too.

The 465s/466s (and, to some extent, the 376s) are looking a little tired, and are showing their age. I don't think a 465/466 must be particularly fun on a service into London Bridge at 8am on a Monday morning and 5pm return!
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Whilst I will miss the 707s, I do think they'll be highly beneficial to Southeastern. They're comfortable, spacious, and perfect for commute routes in and out of London. They can take quite a lot of standees too.

The 465s/466s (and, to some extent, the 376s) are looking a little tired, and are showing their age. I don't think a 465/466 must be particularly fun on a service into London Bridge at 8am on a Monday morning and 5pm return!
I guess it depends on whether you prefer being rammed in a tight seat or standing...
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
6,969
Location
Taunton or Kent
Presumably the seating arrangement was designed in an era that coped well with passenger demand, but the vast increase in rail travel over the course of the Networkers' lifetime, especially in an area with plenty of population growth, has left their layout behind the times. 707s seem to be one of many examples of recent commuter focused rolling stock with vast[er] standing room space provision.
 

ValleyLines142

Established Member
Joined
25 Jul 2011
Messages
6,844
Location
Gloucester
I guess it depends on whether you prefer being rammed in a tight seat or standing...

I don't find the seats tight. I'm 6ft 4 and broad shouldered too. But I respect that you may feel the opposite! All depends on personal preference I guess.

To be fair, sometimes it is nicer just to stand for a short period of time on the train!
 

zn1

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2011
Messages
435
given choice now, now that the Networkers are nearly 30 years old, would you prefer a 12 car 465/466 or a 12 car EPB doing the job ? I know what i would prefer, the Networkers Every Time..
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
I don't find the seats tight. I'm 6ft 4 and broad shouldered too. But I respect that you may feel the opposite! All depends on personal preference I guess.

To be fair, sometimes it is nicer just to stand for a short period of time on the train!
The facing seats are tight, with 6 people crammed into a small space, especially with thick winter coats on, but for anything over say 15 minutes I'd rather that than standing...
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
The facing seats are tight, with 6 people crammed into a small space, especially with thick winter coats on, but for anything over say 15 minutes I'd rather that than standing...

Let’s be honest people are getting fatter. If they removed the ‘third seat’ and added a bit of space (like 365s) we’d be laughing.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
Unlike in some other places, passengers do actually occupy the middle seats in the South East pretty readily.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Let’s be honest people are getting fatter. If they removed the ‘third seat’ and added a bit of space (like 365s) we’d be laughing.

Or replaced the seats with more upright ones. The bays of 6 on LNR 350/2s have very generous legroom indeed. It's the BR suburban seats used in the 1980s and 90s EMUs which mean things are packed in because they're quite steeply raked, wasting a lot of space.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
The Tunbridge Wells 8 and 10 car networkers seat even solitary commuters in them. It might be a journey time factor, but I've not seen the (admittedly occasional) 350/2s on the Trent Valley used in such a way. I think the GEML/WAML might be the same, hence ordering 3+2 Aventras. Must be a commuter thing.

Weren't the 319 middle seats little used?
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
Unlike in some other places, passengers do actually occupy the middle seats in the South East pretty readily.

Yes definitely, been on plenty of 165/6s with every seat occupied.
Obviously these no longer operate out of Paddington anymore.
 

TheWalrus

Established Member
Joined
6 Oct 2008
Messages
1,983
Location
UK
They can be fitted with pantographs for ac operation. Indeed, a few were delivered and tested in that mode.
I wasn’t aware of that but it seems a lot of 3rd rail EMUs have the capability for a pantograph to be fitted, if they don’t have one already.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
I wasn’t aware of that but it seems a lot of 3rd rail EMUs have the capability for a pantograph to be fitted, if they don’t have one already.

Out of the post-privatisation third rail EMUs, I understand it's only the Class 458s that may encounter some difficulty with being retrofitted.
 

theking

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2011
Messages
626
Anyone with good photoshop skills knocked up what they'll look like is SE livery yet?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top