Confirmation of rolling stock changes at Southeastern, including 707s

[4-SUB 4732]

Not sure why people think 455s and 456s (for example) would be on the way first but the 707s are the first to be released that the requisite reports say because of the fact they’re actually needed....

 

[Domh245]

how recent were you told this? The plan changed a couple of months ago that 707s were to be retained until the end and that 455 and 456s would be seen off first, then 458s then 707s. Personally if SWR have any say what so ever I can’t blame them. The performance and reliability of the trains are now somewhere up there as the best 3rd rail, maybe even the most reliable electric unit by MTIN, and with SWT’s fleet unit not playing with the TINS any more they’re probably more accurate.

It was a while ago, but if the plan has changed then fair enough! ISTR that the plan to offload the 707s first was down to the lease costs rather than any thing else, and if there's now another user lined up for them I wouldn't be surprised if they now didn't stay until the end

 

[Fincra5]

Isn't it more logical that the 707s will simply release the 376s for the oft suggested / quoted / speculated conversion to battery units.

They'll simply drop on one for one as 5car units on existing 5car unit diagrams. No loo units for no loo units.

There aren't quite as many 707s [30] as 376s [36] but even post-virus recovery - whenever that is - won't see numbers back to what they were for years, less demand for longer trains can be met by overall diagram juggling acoss the whole SET fleet.

The 376s then - with battery - release the 17x and so on.

--
Nick

Was never planned to be 376s. 377/3s were looked at but nothing has been done. 3rd Rail seems to be the preferred option but who knows now. 376s could be shifted over to SN Coastway (as was rumoured) being released by 707s. Although it seems the 707s are for increasing capacity.

 

[cactustwirly]

how recent were you told this? The plan changed a couple of months ago that 707s were to be retained until the end and that 455 and 456s would be seen off first, then 458s then 707s. Personally if SWR have any say what so ever I can’t blame them. The performance and reliability of the trains are now somewhere up there as the best 3rd rail, maybe even the most reliable electric unit by MTIN, and with SWT’s fleet unit not playing with the TINS any more they’re probably more accurate.

It depends on when the lease runs out, I suspect Southeastern have an agreed date for when they get the 707s, therefore SWR will have to withdraw the 707s when the lease expires. I imagine this is going to be sooner rather than later.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Can we just, please all, stop discussing effects of Corona. Reality is that if capacity never recovers, politically the 707s will he kept and some older units will be released.

 

[hwl]

how recent were you told this? The plan changed a couple of months ago that 707s were to be retained until the end and that 455 and 456s would be seen off first, then 458s then 707s. Personally if SWR have any say what so ever I can’t blame them. The performance and reliability of the trains are now somewhere up there as the best 3rd rail, maybe even the most reliable electric unit by MTIN, and with SWT’s fleet unit not playing with the TINS any more they’re probably more accurate.

Agreed SWR's last plan was to retain the 707s the longest as they are the best performing (reliability and dwell time) and are 10 car. Circa 30% of SW metro services are 8car so the logical thing is to replace 8 to 10 car first to add capacity as the new trains are late.
PPM would be worse/not improve in the interim if the 707 went first rather than staying till last. 455+456 replacement with 701 should see a good overall PPM boost.

 

[pompeyfan]

Agreed SWR's last plan was to retain the 707s the longest as they are the best performing (reliability and dwell time) and are 10 car. Circa 30% of SW metro services are 8car so the logical thing is to replace 8 to 10 car first to add capacity as the new trains are late.
PPM would be worse/not improve in the interim if the 707 went first rather than staying till last. 455+456 replacement with 701 should see a good overall PPM boost.

I’m glad I’m not going mad after being shot down earlier in thread. I agree with others saying they’ll go when the lease ends, whenever that may be, but hopefully the lease has been extended enough to allow 701s into traffic to see off the BR stock.

 

[brad465]

Agreed SWR's last plan was to retain the 707s the longest as they are the best performing (reliability and dwell time) and are 10 car. Circa 30% of SW metro services are 8car so the logical thing is to replace 8 to 10 car first to add capacity as the new trains are late.
PPM would be worse/not improve in the interim if the 707 went first rather than staying till last. 455+456 replacement with 701 should see a good overall PPM boost.

If time is used well the later cascade of 707s from SWR should give SE more time to sort out somewhere to store the extra carriages.

 

[rdlover777]

Anyone with good photoshop skills knocked up what they'll look like is SE livery yet?

here is one i made in the SE Refurb livery but i honestly think they're just get the ex-Connex white and grey like on the 376s

 

[4REP]

Will the 707s be based at Slade Green? I cannot think of any other depots in the Kent suburban area.

 

[Class 466]

here is one i made in the SE Refurb livery but i honestly think they're just get the ex-Connex white and grey like on the 376s
View attachment 76922

Why would they get put into the livery of an operator that ceased existing in 2004? *If* they do get reliveried it'll be in the all over blue rather than anything else. although they won't have a first class area as per that mock up

 

[brad465]

Will the 707s be based at Slade Green? I cannot think of any other depots in the Kent suburban area.

Grove Park and possibly Gillingham are other possibilities for suburban depot bases. However the big issue SE have is there is currently no capacity for any extra stock to be stored, something they will have to resolve before 707s arrive if (as they should be) they are to be an addition to the franchise as opposed to replacing something. If somewhere like Chart Leacon was established then some rolling stock could be put there, either 707s themselves or an existing class with SE could be relocated there to allow 707s to use suburban depots more.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Will the 707s be based at Slade Green? I cannot think of any other depots in the Kent suburban area.

The maintenance depot they will need to cycle on and off will be Slade Green; unless some sort of deal / arrangement is reached for them to be contract-maintained elsewhere which I find highly unlikely.

 

[Energy]

Is the current SWT livery all paint or white with a red vinyl on top? Is it is red paint then they will either be red or it could be anything. If it is white underneath I expect the SE metro livery

 

[Domh245]

Red paint with vinyls. Image of a bodyshell coming out of the paintshop at Krefeld

The choice of livery will very much depend on how long their future at SE is planned to be. At the moment you'd expect maybe 3 years out of them (1 in Direct award after release from SWR, 2 in the next franchise before any replacement stock is potentially brought in) but obviously that depends on what any subsequent franchise does - not to mention that it's not a forgone conclusion for it to be won by someone other than Govia with a new brand introduced. I suspect stickers on top of the red will be the order of the day.

 

[hwl]

Is the current SWT livery all paint or white with a red vinyl on top? Is it is red paint then they will either be red or it could be anything. If it is white underneath I expect the SE metro livery

Red painted body shell, doors painted in the stagecoach blue-purple colour, painted yellow ends.
rest Vinyl

See painted but no vinyls stage here:

Rail | Televic

We provide innovative and reliable passenger information.

www.televic-rail.com

 

[hwl]

Grove Park and possibly Gillingham are other possibilities for suburban depot bases. However the big issue SE have is there is currently no capacity for any extra stock to be stored, something they will have to resolve before 707s arrive if (as they should be) they are to be an addition to the franchise as opposed to replacing something. If somewhere like Chart Leacon was established then some rolling stock could be put there, either 707s themselves or an existing class with SE could be relocated there to allow 707s to use suburban depots more.

See the older posts and discussion so networkers to be mothballed.

 

[Energy]

So we can expect either vinyl all over, similar to TPE 185s, to get SE metro or SE refurb livery, probably not a new livery. Or just the red with SE logos on until the next actual franchise, SE may not get them for a while into their direct award.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

See the older posts and discussion so networkers to be mothballed.

Where did it say that?

 

[Class 466]

Is the current SWT livery all paint or white with a red vinyl on top? Is it is red paint then they will either be red or it could be anything. If it is white underneath I expect the SE metro livery

There's no such thing as 'the se metro livery' the 465s are in the old corporate livery (as was 375609/624/705). The 375 livery is the livery that would be applied to the 707s (in theory).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

So we can expect either vinyl all over, similar to TPE 185s, to get SE metro or SE refurb livery, probably not a new livery. Or just the red with SE logos on until the next actual franchise, SE may not get them for a while into their direct award.

If the paint is still under warranty it won’t go anywhere.

 

[ExRes]

Interesting that 200+ posts have been made on info from a magazine that most people consider to be pretty much useless and edited by Pinocchio, is there any corroboration of the report from 'more reliable' sources? I certainly don't see any as yet

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting that 200+ posts have been made on info from a magazine that most people consider to be pretty much useless and edited by Pinocchio, is there any corroboration of the report from 'more reliable' sources? I certainly don't see any as yet

Post #163 includes a link to an article with a quote from Southeastern...

 

[Energy]

If the paint is still under warranty it won’t go anywhere.

Thats why I said vinyled all over.

 

[hwl]

Where did it say that?

The now locked se franchise thread page 7

Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

But Crossrail isn’t currently open... For goodness sake! No one has said that it is. The whole discussion is whether people will switch to XR at Abbey Wood when it is open. You seem to assert that very few, if any, people who commute from Crayford or Bexley will switch to rounders and XR...

www.railforums.co.uk

E.g post 193

Some posts also deleted in the split

 

[hwl]

Interesting that 200+ posts have been made on info from a magazine that most people consider to be pretty much useless and edited by Pinocchio, is there any corroboration of the report from 'more reliable' sources? I certainly don't see any as yet

This discussion started in the SE franchise with insiders well before Rail got involved and this thread was split

 

[brad465]

See the older posts and discussion so networkers to be mothballed.

The now locked se franchise thread page 7

Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

But Crossrail isn’t currently open... For goodness sake! No one has said that it is. The whole discussion is whether people will switch to XR at Abbey Wood when it is open. You seem to assert that very few, if any, people who commute from Crayford or Bexley will switch to rounders and XR...

www.railforums.co.uk

E.g post 193

Some posts also deleted in the split

Apologies if I haven't captured this correctly: I saw you say it would make sense for 466s to be mothballed, which I do agree if something has to be so they should be first, but I didn't see anything that says any Networkers (or any other stock for that matter) are officially being mothballed. If it's just 466s you'll still get a net gain of carriages, but there is not much point in 707s coming over and extra storage being provided if the overcrowding on SE services are not addressed by this move.

 

[rebmcr]

See the older posts and discussion so networkers to be mothballed.

Where did it say that?

I think it's likely @hwl meant "no Networkers to be mothballed" but didn't check their typing before posting.

 

[northernbelle]

See the older posts and discussion so networkers to be mothballed.

Apologies if I haven't captured this correctly: I saw you say it would make sense for 466s to be mothballed, which I do agree if something has to be so they should be first, but I didn't see anything that says any Networkers (or any other stock for that matter) are officially being mothballed. If it's just 466s you'll still get a net gain of carriages, but there is not much point in 707s coming over and extra storage being provided if the overcrowding on SE services are not addressed by this move.

I would expect some 465 trailer vehicles to be displaced - there is a home for a small number as will become clearer in due course. Whether this would result in additional 466s being created by the 465 driving cars that are unaccounted for remains to be seen.

 

[Class 466]

I would expect some 465 trailer vehicles to be displaced - there is a home for a small number as will become clearer in due course. Whether this would result in additional 466s being created by the 465 driving cars that are unaccounted for remains to be seen.

Why on earth would 465 trailer vehicles be displaced? Nothing is being displaced at all.