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Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

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EC54

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I take it this decision today will put an end to the ludicrous suggestion of driverless trains on the uk mainline by many posters when they get inconvienanced by drivers strikes. As i have always said never in any of our lifetimes will this happen the cost would be astronomical compared to HS2.
 
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Mikey C

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Well I'm in Greater Manchester and I'm not deluded enough to think that Birmingham is anything other than England's Second City. Except when it comes to football. And airports. And trams. And even motorways. ;)
Manchester United are one of the businesses upset by the HS2 cancellation. It would have made it much easier for their fans to get to games ;)
 

LOL The Irony

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I don't see what (if much) journey time improvements for Manchester are going to happen but Scotland's journey times are going to be significantly worse without tilting rolling stock. I forsee the Pendolinos becoming the new HSTs; staying on in front line service well past their use by date.

Leveling up, they said...
 

Meerkat

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increase in costs relates to chopping and changing, dither and delay, on the part of politicians
How much of that was due to HS2 not putting together a believable case, and then continually increasing the demands for cash?
Not really because what's been published is a speech, which is political and has no real details of anything, and a very, very short report which is incredibly thin on details.
It has a list of projects that can be discussed. Repeatedly saying "none of this will happen" adds nothing to the thread.
 

Purple Train

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Manchester United are one of the businesses upset by the HS2 cancellation. It would have made it much easier for their fans to get to games ;)
A Parry People Mover will provide the required capacity. ;)

The more I read this farce of an announcement, the more obvious it is that we are blessed with pretty much the most childish and vindictive government in generations. "Cancel HS2 and spend it all on other rail projects" my foot. I wish I shared the optimism of those who are confident they'll get ousted.

I'm sure further cuts are to come once the crayons have been packed away, and the average long-suffering passenger will be even more coldly sacrificed by the grandmaster for the sake of a stalemate.
 
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I would also have a fiver on the contract with Alstom & Hitachi to be varied to have most trains at a length around 250 metres to replicate the length of 11 car Pendolinos. But obviously with many more seats.

250m long trains would also simply Euston somewhat.
There is a need to shift people from plane to train for travelling between the Scotland and South of England to reduce CO2 emissions and the only practical way to substantially increase capacity on the trains is to use the two train paths an hour currently used by the AWC trains from London Euston to Glasgow to run 400 metre double set trains and dividing and joining them at Carlisle with one 200 metre set to Glasgow and one 200 metre set to Edinburgh as stated in Annex B of the 2020 full business case for High Speed Two phase one. Also can still run 400 metre trains to Birmingham with the High Speed Two Stations built as currently planned and it is possible that High Speed Two to Manchester could still be built at some point in the future. For all these reasons I would argue that all four High Speed Two Phase One stations including Euston should be built for 400 metre long trains. Scrapping HS2 phase two to Manchester may require there to be trains of different lengths, some 200 metre sets and some 250 metre sets, to make best use of High Speed Two capacity but this is a consequence of the Government's decision to scrap HS2 phase two to Manchester. I assume that to follow the plan in Annex B of the 2020 full business case they would have had to lengthen platforms at some stations on the West Coast Mainline so they should also look at lengthening platforms at some WCML stations.
 

Parjon

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I have a feeling that's going to be passed to Manchester and Merseyside Metro Mayors to sort out how to do that ;)
The expense of needless platinum plating for Manchester has always been at Liverpool's expense. You are quite right: the two mayors are to be told to negotiate the outcome. If Manchester wants to blow the £12bn on themselves, they'll have to convince us!

No doubt the Tory hope is that it splits the Burnham/rotheram axis. With any luck, we will actually get a sensible outcome. For once.

Ps. It's Liverpool city region mayor ;) LCR and Merseyside are not coterminous.
 

Arkeeos

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Has anyone else done the maths to how much investment in the north and midlands rail has been cut compared to the IRP by this announcement? I'm getting around 30bil.

The integrated rail plan was 96bil total, with phase1 and 2a being 42bil. 54bil was for the north and (East) midlands. The "Network North" (I hate that name so much) has 19.8bil for the north and 9.6bil for the midlands for 29.4bil so that's a 24.6bil difference, then you add on the 5.7bil for local transport in 8 English city regions, lets say 1/2 would go to the north and (East) midlands so add 2.8bil, then you have to add on phase 2a refund which is suspiciously missing for the "network north" proposals, lets say 5bil for that, so thats 32.4bil of investment wiped away.

You can claim the time frames will be different, but you also can't because there has been zero actual planning or consultation done for these new ideas, so they are 10 years away from ever being in a somewhat buildable state.
 

paul1609

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Tilt is dead (the WCML is already being reprofiled in places for 125mph non-tilt running with the 805s and 807s), but I'd expect to see 400km/h units (why slow it down when you've got less of it to gain?) but possibly of different lengths, i.e. between 250 and 300m long for better classic compatibility.
I suspect that tilt should have been dead as soon as it was decided that the maximum speed was 125mph when Rail track couldn't deliver the promised moving block signalling system but it was covered up to avoid paying even more damages to Virgin/avoid more loss of face.
 

Krokodil

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we still have no idea what route they are talking about.
Neither do they

I take it this decision today will put an end to the ludicrous suggestion of driverless trains on the uk mainline by many posters when they get inconvienanced by drivers strikes. As i have always said never in any of our lifetimes will this happen the cost would be astronomical compared to HS2.
Only after the government blows a kazillion on a feasibility study to tell them what everyone else already knew.
 

D365

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When taking into account that Sunak’s direct prime ministerial predecessors have been reported as being against this decision - and Sunak’s recent anti-anything-but-drivers policies - is there any unspoken reasoning [i.e. hidden agenda] behind this decision? And why Sunak seemingly wields the power to cut a multi-billion project (and tens of thousands of jobs in the process) without going though parliamentary process?
 

yorksrob

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"It is by their actions shall they be judged"

How can any rail user believe that Sunak has suddenly gained a belief in Northern connectivity when his Government has been (and continues to be) running the passenger railway into the ground for the past two years.

They must take us for a right bunch of gullible muppets.
 

Peterthegreat

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"It is by their actions shall they be judged"

How can any rail user believe that Sunak has suddenly gained a belief in Northern connectivity when his Government has been (and continues to be) running the passenger railway into the ground for the past two years.

They must take us for a right bunch of gullible muppets.
Unfortunately some people are.
 

Wolfie

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Jeremy Hunt struggling like crazy to defend this decision on BBC Breakfast.....

"It is by their actions shall they be judged"

How can any rail user believe that Sunak has suddenly gained a belief in Northern connectivity when his Government has been (and continues to be) running the passenger railway into the ground for the past two years.

They must take us for a right bunch of gullible muppets.
Were l cynical (moi?) I would say that this decision is about creating funds for tax cuts to try to retain the Blue wall down South. What it certainly isn't about is improved public transport in the North.
 

Austriantrain

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So, you don't think 18tph off 11 platforms (the original "full" plan including Eastern leg) was workable, then? As 9tph off 6 is basically the same utilisation.

The real question is: Why would you plan for 9 tph wenn the line would allow up to 18? You kill off any possibility to increase usage in the future. Exactly the kind of short-term thinking at its worst.
 

Bantamzen

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"It is by their actions shall they be judged"

How can any rail user believe that Sunak has suddenly gained a belief in Northern connectivity when his Government has been (and continues to be) running the passenger railway into the ground for the past two years.

They must take us for a right bunch of gullible muppets.
Wait? What? We're not getting the ultra-high speed Network North line, with shiny new tunnels and billion quid stations....??

I feel like I'm a kid that has just been told that Santa is real, but doesn't give out gifts but instead comes to your house, eats all your food, drinks all your booze, then runs off with your PS5.... ;)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The report indicates that the Manchester bits of phase 2a are still built, but the budget does not support that.
I think you mean phase 2b (the Manchester end of Crewe-Manchester) and the budget is in there at £12 billion.
Sunak left it to local interests to decide if they still wanted the HS2 planned route, or some other solution.
It will take years to unravel all that lot, and the Phase 2b Bill may imminently be lost in parliament, so they'll have to start again.
 

a_c_skinner

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Apologies if this has been said already but not going to Crewe must be an electoral decision not fiscal as it was a relatively low cost section. I'm not a railway expert but a map and crayon session strongly says to me that going to Crewe makes Euston (!) to the West Midlands much better value.
 

Noddy

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All the other "commitments" were reported on in BBC news. The £12bn high speed line into Liverpool was not. Doesn't matter whether you believe it or not.

There as much chance of a high speed (or for that matter any new) line going anywhere near Liverpool, as there is 30 minute Bradford-Manchester trains, and pigs flying. Any money that is ‘ring fenced’ for NPR or whatever it’s called today, will be unring fenced the next time some money needs to be saved. You are an absolute fool if you believe that Liverpool will get anything other than token minor enhancements.
 
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Wolfie

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Wait? What? We're not getting the ultra-high speed Network North line, with shiny new tunnels and billion quid stations....??

I feel like I'm a kid that has just been told that Santa is real, but doesn't give out gifts but instead comes to your house, eats all your food, drinks all your booze, then runs off with your PS5.... ;)
If Rishi had been in office then you'd probably still have Pacers....
 

DDB

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Has anyone else done the maths to how much investment in the north and midlands rail has been cut compared to the IRP by this announcement? I'm getting around 30bil.

The integrated rail plan was 96bil total, with phase1 and 2a being 42bil. 54bil was for the north and (East) midlands. The "Network North" (I hate that name so much) has 19.8bil for the north and 9.6bil for the midlands for 29.4bil so that's a 24.6bil difference, then you add on the 5.7bil for local transport in 8 English city regions, lets say 1/2 would go to the north and (East) midlands so add 2.8bil, then you have to add on phase 2a refund which is suspiciously missing for the "network north" proposals, lets say 5bil for that, so thats 32.4bil of investment wiped away.

You can claim the time frames will be different, but you also can't because there has been zero actual planning or consultation done for these new ideas, so they are 10 years away from ever being in a somewhat buildable state.
There is a good proportion of the money that is not new as well. The money to new regional mayors was already part of that scheme. Some of the reopening schemes would have also be funded by various reopening railway funds that also pre existed this announcement.
 

Wolfie

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I was sent this by a non-railway supporting friend yesterday.

Rishi's new HS2 proposal for Birmingham to Manchester....


I checked with @yorkie that posting would be okay.

The video shows some sort of engineering train (non-UK) towing a portaloo.....
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There is a need to shift people from plane to train for travelling between the Scotland and South of England to reduce CO2 emissions and the only practical way to substantially increase capacity on the trains is to use the two train paths an hour currently used by the AWC trains from London Euston to Glasgow to run 400 metre double set trains and dividing and joining them at Carlisle with one 200 metre set to Glasgow and one 200 metre set to Edinburgh as stated in Annex B of the 2020 full business case for High Speed Two phase one. Also can still run 400 metre trains to Birmingham with the High Speed Two Stations built as currently planned and it is possible that High Speed Two to Manchester could still be built at some point in the future. For all these reasons I would argue that all four High Speed Two Phase One stations including Euston should be built for 400 metre long trains. Scrapping HS2 phase two to Manchester may require there to be trains of different lengths, some 200 metre sets and some 250 metre sets, to make best use of High Speed Two capacity but this is a consequence of the Government's decision to scrap HS2 phase two to Manchester. I assume that to follow the plan in Annex B of the 2020 full business case they would have had to lengthen platforms at some stations on the West Coast Mainline so they should also look at lengthening platforms at some WCML stations.
The plan to run double sets to Carlisle and divide there was lost when the Golborne link was canned last year.
That pulled down the plan for 400m platforms at Preston and Carlisle, and also the rolling stock depot in Scotland.
Until yesterday the 400m platforms at Crewe were still in the plan (to enable splitting of Liverpool/Preston services), and at Piccadilly.
They have now gone too, so no 400m trains north of Birmingham.
The 2020 business case is now toast.
 
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yorksrob

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Unfortunately some people are.

Indeed.

Jeremy Hunt struggling like crazy to defend this decision on BBC Breakfast.....


Were l cynical (moi?) I would say that this decision is about creating funds for tax cuts to try to retain the Blue wall down South. What it certainly isn't about is improved public transport in the North.

Yes, this sounds more plausible.

Wait? What? We're not getting the ultra-high speed Network North line, with shiny new tunnels and billion quid stations....??

I feel like I'm a kid that has just been told that Santa is real, but doesn't give out gifts but instead comes to your house, eats all your food, drinks all your booze, then runs off with your PS5.... ;)

Indeed. Don't get me wrong, I would welcome many of these projects, I just think I have more chance of finding fairies at the bottom of my garden, than a Sunak Government delivering them.
 

Cestrian21

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When taking into account that Sunak’s direct prime ministerial predecessors have been reported as being against this decision - and Sunak’s recent anti-anything-but-drivers policies - is there any unspoken reasoning [i.e. hidden agenda] behind this decision? And why Sunak seemingly wields the power to cut a multi-billion project (and tens of thousands of jobs in the process) without going though parliamentary process?
I don't think there's much in the way of hidden reasoning here.

Sunak isn't massively fond of public transport and has been opposed to HS2 for years. It all costs vast amounts of money, and he'd rather cut taxes instead.
 

Parjon

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When taking into account that Sunak’s direct prime ministerial predecessors have been reported as being against this decision - and Sunak’s recent anti-anything-but-drivers policies - is there any unspoken reasoning [i.e. hidden agenda] behind this decision? And why Sunak seemingly wields the power to cut a multi-billion project (and tens of thousands of jobs in the process) without going though parliamentary process?
His predecessors:
1) a co-architect of today's ravaged society resulting from austerity, with extreme poverty, normalised street living, drugs everywhere, crime ignored by the police, years long waiting lists for surgery etc etc
2) a bitter woman who seems to take every opportunity to be "bloody difficult"
3) the man who is disregarded in the media and often on here as insincere, a liar etc etc
4) a woman who couldn't pass her probation.

He did what his weak, inept precessors neglected to. Of course they're not happy. He's made a show of them. I count that as a good sign.

In fact, the only pm who briefly "wanted" HS2 was the one who announced it shortly before an election, as an insincere act to try and either win it against the odds, or leave a headache for the incoming.

And indeed a headache is has been. It's only this wailing reaction from a few quarters that's scared others off from pulling the plug on this destructive nonsense. Of course, the longer it's gone on the more vested interests and the more snake oil salesmen.

The Manchester obsessed BBC clearly don't like that it's been pulled. Especially given how negatively they've been reporting the replacement (including burying the fact that £12bn will still be spent on the line into Liverpool). But in fact, I think he came across quite well.
 
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stuu

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From moving off from the protecting signal to clearing the section on the way back out again, assuming 120 seconds is enough time for that, that gives you 16 minutes to get everyone off the train and off the platform, clean it, then get everyone back on. 1,000 people cannot wait on the platform next to the train while another 1,000 people try to alight and leave. 16 minutes for all that is not achievable. You may be able to compress that for a shorter train but that just wastes further time with more flat platform-end conflicting movements.
Happens in Tokyo 30 times an hour
 

Wolfie

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O
His predecessors:
1) a co-architect of today's ravaged society resulting from austerity, with extreme poverty, normalised street living, drugs everywhere, crime ignored by the police, years long waiting lists for surgery etc etc
2) a bitter woman who seems to take every opportunity to be "bloody difficult"
3) the man who is disregarded in the media and often on here as insincere, a liar etc etc
4) a woman who couldn't pass her probation.

In fact, the only pm who briefly "wanted" HS2 was the one who announced it shortly before an election, as an insincere act to try and either win it against the odds, or leave a headache for the incoming.

And indeed a headache is has been. It's only this wailing reaction from a few quarters that's scared others off from pulling the plug on this destructive nonsense. Of course, the longer it's gone on the more vested interests and the more snake oil salesmen.

The Manchester obsessed BBC clearly don't like that it's been pulled. Especially given how negatively they've been reporting the replacement (including burying the fact that £12bn will still be spent on the line into Liverpool). But in fact, I think he came across quite well.

He did what his weak, inept precessors neglected to. Of course they're not happy. He's made a show of them. I count that as a good sign.
Even CCO wouldn't be that positive..... Welcome to a Rishi party political broadcast.
 
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Parjon

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O

Ok Rishi. Even CCO wouldn't be that positive. Thankfully 18 months maximum left of your non-existent mandate.
Oh ok, so you're a fan of Camerosborne, May, Johnson and Truss now are you?

Joker. Anyway, can get a lot done in 18 months. Must crack on. V
 
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