• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Confiscated Railcard

Status
Not open for further replies.

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
Hello all,

Today I was travelling on the outward portion of an off peak return fare between Loughborough and Wakefield Stations (Westgate) with a 16-25 Railcard. On 1S45 between Sheffield and Wakefield Westgate, the train manager erroneously determined that my Railcard was a fake and confiscated it from me. When I queried how I was to return without the Railcard on the other portion of my ticket, he decided to also confiscate the ticket and issue me with a zero fare replacement, leaving his details on the back of the ticket for any future revenue inspectors.

For the avoidance of doubt, the Railcard was legally purchased in July 2017 online, and was a photocard that had been renewed from a previous 3 year card. It arrived with rather poor print quality, and has suffered natural wear and tear in the years since I have owned it. I was able to prove that the picture was of myself as I also carry a separate photocard for my East Midlands Trains (as was) smart card.

The train manager has promised that my card will be posted to me if it proven genuine. My question is: what recourse do I have to claim back any money lost on journeys between now and then? It is very likely that I will need to travel in the next few days and weeks, and the prospect of losing quite a bit of money on full price fares is not a happy one. Additionally, if I am challenged on my zero fare return and asked to pay a penalty fare or the price of a new ticket, what recourse do I have there?

Many thanks in advance.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Adam Williams

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
1,706
Location
Warks
Have you contacted Railcard customer services about this? I'd be asking them to sort out this mess with CrossCountry, I think, and get you a new railcard.
 
Last edited:

reb0118

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Jan 2010
Messages
3,194
Location
Bo'ness, West Lothian
You should have no issues with using the zero fare ticket. It is a valid method of allowing passengers to complete their journey when their original tickets or supporting documents have been removed for further investigation.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
An illegible or defaced railcard is not a valid one.
The Railcard was neither illegible, nor defaced. There was a degree of chromatic aberration where the ink heads had clearly not been aligned during printing, which did not affect the legibility of the text as it was printed in black. There was a minor amount of dirt accumulated from my wallet.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
You should have no issues with using the zero fare ticket. It is a valid method of allowing passengers to complete their journey when their original tickets or supporting documents have been removed for further investigation.
Assuming this is the case, then the issue is now resolved, as Railcard have agreed to send me a replacement free of charge, and I understand I can use the confirmation email in the interim.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
That is a good outcome that Railcard customer services agreed to send you a new railcard free of charge. Hopefully this should arrive soon. I've had a railcard arrive 2 Royal Mail working days later.

Aside from that, if the railcard was in the condition you describe i.e. you were using it in the condition you received it in and it had only suffered natural wear and tear then you are quite entitled to make a complaint to Cross Country Customer Services. This is if you feel your railcard was unduly taken from you. If their reply is not satisfactory then you can ask for a Manager to review the case and also appeal to the independent Rail Ombudsman.
 

Adam Williams

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
1,706
Location
Warks
Aside from that, if the railcard was in the condition you describe i.e. you were using it in the condition you received it in and it had only suffered natural wear and tear then you are quite entitled to make a complaint to Cross Country Customer Services. This is if you feel your railcard was unduly taken from you. If their reply is not satisfactory then you can ask for a Manager to review the case and also appeal to the independent Rail Ombudsman.
I'd echo this - not only should it hopefully ensure that XC advise staff on what a poorly printed card looks like, I'd hope that XC would take some steps to try and compensate you for the time you've had to waste taking this up with RDG as a result of their error.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
I may well pursue this course of action, and will post the results here.
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,742
The TM has at least acted correctly in giving you a zero-fare to complete your journey rather than making a scene trying to charge you for a new ticket etc which would have left you out of pocket straight away.
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
Did the guard also give you a receipt for the railcard which he confiscated?
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
Did the guard also give you a receipt for the railcard which he confiscated?
No, I was only able to confirm my details to the Railcard support call centre with my name/address/email.

To add further complication to the situation, I now need to claim a full delay repay owing to becoming stranded on my return journey. Not having the original ticket or my Railcard means doing this online is basically impossible. The guard on this service (a member of this forum!) has advised me to send my zero fare ticket in with a written note in a paper claim form.
 

1955LR

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2019
Messages
241
Location
Hereford
When claiming delay repay ,on anything that doesn't fit the online system , I send as a letter either by post or email and have so far always been successful.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
So lets get this right, you have been messaged by the guard concerned on this forum....

How did you book the tickets, was it online? If so, you might be able to use this for delay repay purposes. You do not need to show a railcard for delay repay. However, you state that the guard took the ticket off you on the outward journey. I am assuming he took both portions.

I would therefore recommend you use the booking confirmation if you have one. If you don't have this, how did you pay for the ticket?
 

Flying Snail

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2006
Messages
1,625
So lets get this right, you have been messaged by the guard concerned on this forum....

How did you book the tickets, was it online? If so, you might be able to use this for delay repay purposes. You do not need to show a railcard for delay repay. However, you state that the guard took the ticket off you on the outward journey. I am assuming he took both portions.

I would therefore recommend you use the booking confirmation if you have one. If you don't have this, how did you pay for the ticket?

I read it as the guard on his return journey using the zero fare ticket is a RUK member, not the guard that confiscated the railcard and ticket.
 

Dave91131

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2018
Messages
671
An illegible or defaced railcard is not a valid one.

Genuine question which could easily be interpreted as an 'awkward' one;

What would constitute a defaced railcard?

One which is anything other than pristine?
One which has to be looked at for more than a couple of seconds to determine validity or other information?
One on which all personal / validity information is perfectly legible but with small scuffs / rips on the corners?
Other factors?

Any info welcomed.
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
2,943
Genuine question which could easily be interpreted as an 'awkward' one;

What would constitute a defaced railcard?

One which is anything other than pristine?
One which has to be looked at for more than a couple of seconds to determine validity or other information?
One on which all personal / validity information is perfectly legible but with small scuffs / rips on the corners?
Other factors?

Any info welcomed.
The Cambridge English dictionary gives the following defintion for 'deface' at https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/deface

to damage and spoil the appearance of something by writing or drawing on it

So assuming that a dictionary definition holds good, a defaced railcard would be a card which had been deliberately scribbled on or mangled. In practice, I suspect that the 'illegible' bit might be more of a problem. Always assuming, of course, that there is a term about this in the T&Cs for railcards: a quick glance at the 18-25 conditions doesn't seem to include those words, and the need to (ahem) go and catch a train prevents me from checking any further right now.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
I read it as the guard on his return journey using the zero fare ticket is a RUK member, not the guard that confiscated the railcard and ticket.
This is correct. A very helpful guard on my return journey had already read this thread and was able to offer advice.

How did you book the tickets, was it online? If so, you might be able to use this for delay repay purposes. You do not need to show a railcard for delay repay. However, you state that the guard took the ticket off you on the outward journey. I am assuming he took both portions.

I would therefore recommend you use the booking confirmation if you have one. If you don't have this, how did you pay for the ticket?
I bought the ticket from a TVM at Leicester station on the day of outward travel. I was travelling for very short notice reasons. I have no receipt of purchase, barring a bank statement.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
Worst case then you show your bank statement showing the transaction. There is an argument that XC have your ticket already.
 

jamiearmley

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2017
Messages
204
Hi. It's the helpful guard here. (Thanks for the compliment by the way, that was certainly an interesting journey!) . At this point, I would advise for the delay claim just to send in the zero fare ticket(making a copy for yourself to keep). If, (and it's unlikely), they would like any further evidence they will let you know. They will also advise what evidence that should be. In the meantime, sit tight. In the (unlikely) event that your claim for delay repay is unsuccessful, please drop me a message on this forum : I will then have a word with my line manager and see if anything can be done. I'd like to think that my word, as the guard on the service that you were delayed on, may have some sway with "customer services". I hope you got where you needed to be eventually fella : Sunday was certainly an interesting day!
 

clagmonster

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,442
No, I was only able to confirm my details to the Railcard support call centre with my name/address/email.
OK. The reason I asked is that I suspect the Cross Country guard has completed a Travel Irregularity Report, which may well end up with Transport Investigations Limited. We have seen many cases from said company on this board, so I would advise collating as much evidence as possible now in case you do get a letter in the future. Just a shame there is no evidence of the railcard confiscation taking place, but at least there is good evidence of the railcard existing.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
That is my concern too, the a TIR has been completed and the dreadful company that is Transport Investigations Limited will get involved. I really would be making a formal complaint to Customer Relations at Cross Country, given it sounds like the guard was unreasonable in taking your railcard, before they get involved. That said, if the guard didn't collect the OP's name and address (the OP hasn't confirmed if this happened) then it might be hard for him to complete a full TIR and for TIL to get in touch.
 

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
the Railcard was legally purchased in July 2017 online, and was a photocard that had been renewed from a previous 3 year card. It arrived with rather poor print quality, and has suffered natural wear and tear in the years since I have owned it.

As the Railcard was purchased online, there will be a record of the purchase and holders details at the National Railcard Office

The train manager has promised that my card will be posted to me if it proven genuine.

It is likely that the same Railcard will not be posted back, but the TOC could arrange for a duplicate bearing the original expiry date

My question is: what recourse do I have to claim back any money lost on journeys between now and then? It is very likely that I will need to travel in the next few days and weeks, and the prospect of losing quite a bit of money on full price fares is not a happy one.

If this occurs, keep receipts for all tickets purchased and submit to the TOC with a claim for the fares paid.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
I'd echo this - not only should it hopefully ensure that XC advise staff on what a poorly printed card looks like, I'd hope that XC would take some steps to try and compensate you for the time you've had to waste taking this up with RDG as a result of their error.
I'm on the other side of the fence here; the first guard withdrew an odd-looking railcard from circulation, and (when prompted) made sure the traveller had a zero-fare ticket to complete their journey.

How should a guard be able to (reliably) distinguish between a poorly-printed genuine railcard, and a poorly printed fake?

While the guard in question could have handled the (out-of-the-ordinary) situation a bit better, if I were looking to apportion blame I'd be looking at the railcard issuer who printed and sent out a dodgy-looking railcard.
 

Adam Williams

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2018
Messages
1,706
Location
Warks
I'm on the other side of the fence here; the first guard withdrew an odd-looking railcard from circulation, and (when prompted) made sure the traveller had a zero-fare ticket to complete their journey.

How should a guard be able to (reliably) distinguish between a poorly-printed genuine railcard, and a poorly printed fake?

While the guard in question could have handled the (out-of-the-ordinary) situation a bit better, if I were looking to apportion blame I'd be looking at the railcard issuer who printed and sent out a dodgy-looking railcard.
I see where you're coming from and I do agree, the card shouldn't have even been sent out if it looked poor at dispatch time. And obviously revenue protection is important to the TOCs, but if I was the passenger in this situation I'd be pretty annoyed.

Why does the fraud prevention strategy, in 2020, involve inspecting a printed card and determining if it "looks right" before taking it away for further investigation if it "looks dodgy"? I mean, come on. There will be a sales record in a database which maps the railcard number to my name, address and photo. It gets displayed every time I login to the Railcard site! Why on earth aren't we checking that before taking away potentially legitimately purchased railcards? Until the system improves, I think the benefit of the doubt should absolutely be given.

How many passengers would you be okay with inconveniencing like this before the benefits of withdrawing odd-looking railcards from circulation no longer outweighs the negative impact on legitimate passengers?
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
Why does the fraud prevention strategy, in 2020, involve inspecting a printed card and determining if it "looks right" before taking it away for further investigation if it "looks dodgy"? I mean, come on. There will be a sales record in a database which maps the railcard number to my name, address and photo. It gets displayed every time I login to the Railcard site! Why on earth aren't we checking that before taking away potentially legitimately purchased railcards? Until the system improves, I think the benefit of the doubt should absolutely be given.
That could be useful, if such a system can be accessed by guards when they're out and about. It might be worthwhile to ask CrossCountry about that, rather than criticising their guard too much for working with the tools they have.

The cynic in me could still see some problems, though. What if this dodgy-looking card was made with a scanner and and ID card printer? It might be the same photo (if the holder is a good likeness) or it might have been tweaked or replaced between scanning and printing. What of those people who don't have a photograph uploaded to the railcard database? (I'm only eligible for a station-issued paper railcard, and some other railcards don't even need a photo.)

How many passengers would you be okay with inconveniencing like this before the benefits of withdrawing odd-looking railcards from circulation no longer outweighs the negative impact on legitimate passengers?
I'm not sure I can give a good answer to that question. What I can say is:

The inconvenience should be limited to being issued with a zero fare ticket when the suspected railcard is withdrawn, and then having to request a replacement card. (It shouldn't be sent out automatically: what if the cardholder's moved house, and hasn't updated their details?)

I do, however, strongly feel that a trained guard should be able to withdraw any ticket or railcard they reasonably suspect to be invalid for further inspection, and that there should be suitable procedures in place to enable this.
 

Fare-Cop

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2010
Messages
950
Location
England
I do, however, strongly feel that a trained guard should be able to withdraw any ticket or railcard they reasonably suspect to be invalid for further inspection, and that there should be suitable procedures in place to enable this.

They are able to withdraw any ticket or Railcard in those circumstances and their working instructions make that expressly clear.

There are procedures for dealing with such a withdrawal and from the OPs account, it seems to me that these have been followed.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,461
Location
Sheffield
They are able to withdraw any ticket or Railcard in those circumstances and their working instructions make that expressly clear.

There are procedures for dealing with such a withdrawal and from the OPs account, it seems to me that these have been followed.

How do they withdraw a ticket or Railcard which is displayed electronically ?
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
They are able to withdraw any ticket or Railcard in those circumstances and their working instructions make that expressly clear.

There are procedures for dealing with such a withdrawal and from the OPs account, it seems to me that these have been followed.
Quite. I don't see any need to get rid of that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top