Conflicting Advice From Rail Companies

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Ketosh

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I’m new here and joined up in the hope someone could help me. I’ve received conflicting advice from National Rail and some rail companies – advice that could cost me up to £1,300 a year and/or the threat of prosecution for using an invalid fare combination.

Let me explain briefly.

- I live in Keighley and have just accepted a job in Sheffield which requires me to use the Sheffield Supertram to reach my new office.

- The National Rail website declares an annual rail season ticket between Keighley and Sheffield is £2,968.00 with an additional £47.50 per month for a Sheffield Supertram pass. That’s an annual total of £3,538.00. A tidy sum!

- However, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage available at http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf – specifically clause 19(c) relating to the use of a combination of tickets – says that I can buy a annual rail season ticket between Keighley and Moorthorpe for £1,272.00 and an annual SY Travelmaster card for £948.30 which also gives me travel on the Sheffield tram network and is valid for travel to Moorthorpe.

- For this total annual cost of £2,220.30 – a annual saving of £1,317.70 over the normal Keighley-Sheffield season ticket and Supertram add-on – Clause 19(c) appears to make it clear that this combination of a South Yorkshire Travel Pass and a rail season ticket is valid for travel, even if the train I catch (for example a fast Sheffield-Leeds Cross Country or East Midlands train) doesn’t stop at Moorthorpe.

- I asked National Rail whether I was correct and they responded by email that I was, but I should double-check when I buy my tickets.

- However, East Midlands Trains say that my interpretation of Clause 19(c) is wrong. They claim the SY Travelmaster is a “leisure” ticket, not issued by SY PTE and therefore excluded from Clause 19(c). I have shown them the SY Travelmaster Ts & Cs which clearly say it is issued on behalf of SYPTE, but despite not being able to show me any documentation to prove their assertion, they still claim I’m wrong.

- So far Cross Country have ignored me.

Am I correct or are East Midlands Trains?
 
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soil

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Just for ease of reading:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;
or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days

and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes
 
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Wath Yard

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I think you're wrong. One of the conditions is:

a. They may be used for travel on bus and tram services,
and for standard class travel on specified local rail journeys
(excluding rail journeys which make only one station stop in
South Yorkshire
) in those areas specified for each product.


Therefore, if you travel on a Leeds - Sheffield Cross Country train it will not be valid. The price is also £995 so are you looking at the correct, current leaflet?
 
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The other question is does the fast train still have to take the route of the 2 tickets even though it doesnt stop? X country go through Moorthorpe but EMT do not.
Does the above restriction that Wath Yard mentions still apply if used in combination with a season ticket?
Im not sure tbh but im sure someone on here will be
 

soil

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The following tickets are restricted/less flexible:
A) Season ticket NOT issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority
B) Any 7+-consecutive-day or 3+-in-7+-consecutive-day ticket - defined here as a leisure travel pass

and must be combined with

(1) A single, or return ticket
OR
(2) a Season ticket issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority

If you have one ticket from Group A & B, you can only combine it with a ticket or tickets from Group 1 and 2.

In this case therefore, the only way the South Yorkshire Travelmaster is valid with your Season Ticket (Group A + B), is if the South Yorkshire Travelmaster is a 'Season Ticket' issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive local authority).

In this case, the Travelmaster is issued on behalf of

"They are issued on behalf of the owners by South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive"

So it IS issued by a Passenger Transport Executive. And as it is valid for a year I believe it is a Season Ticket also.

There are other problems however.

Firstly East Midlands do not serve this route apart from at 5:45 and 6:30 towards Sheffield and then around 9pm going back, so they are kind of irrelevant.

There are then three routes between Leeds and Sheffield; via Moorthrope you have the stopping train at Moorthorpe, valid under condition (b), and the other is the hourly fastest train, the CrossCountry. This one however is specifically excluded under the terms of the SY Travelmaster:

"They may be used for travel on bus and tram services, and for standard class travel on specified local rail journeys (excluding rail journeys which make only one station stop in South Yorkshire) in those areas specified for each product."

In the case of the Crosscountry train, it calls at only Sheffield in South Yorkshire. So it's not a local train and it's not valid.

You could look at the slower trains, via Darton or South Elmsall, and check which comply with this term, but it seems impractical.

More flexible, and only slightly more expensive, is a zone 1-5 Metrocard at £1382, which is valid to Darton, Moorthorpe AND South Elmsall.

This is then valid under condition (a), unambiguously, but you can be caught by the 'one stop in South Yorkshire' rule.

If this fails, you can try:
Moorthorpe - Sheffield £908
Zone 1-5 Metrocard £1382

Then:
Sheffield Supertram pass 12* £47.50 = £570

Total £2860

A saving of £678 and should be valid on the hourly fast Crosscountry trains and the Northern stopping service via Moorthorpe. But not valid on routes via Barnsley or Doncaster, and read also, as the Metrocard terms appear to possibly exclude this also: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=57891

I hope you don't have to do it for long, but I would advise the following:

contact Cross Country, in writing, and ask about the validity of (a) the SY Travelmaster in combination with Keighley - Moorthorpe season (b) the SY Travelmaster in combination with the z1-5 Metrocard (c) the Metrocard with a Moorthorpe - Sheffield season

If they say any are valid, buy the cheapest relevant tickets and carry a copy of the letter authorising with you.

I would tend to go for the Metrocard + SY Travelmaster if you can, as it is the most flexible/plausible of the options, both being zonal, and barely more expensive then the cheaper non-zonal ticket. I think you are likely to get away with it, as both tickets are zonal, and the rule about one stop in South Yorkshire might not be enforced.
 
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34D

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The other question is does the fast train still have to take the route of the 2 tickets even though it doesnt stop? X country go through Moorthorpe but EMT do not.

EMT do go through Moorthorpe :s some at least

It is perhaps worth mentioning that Northern run a fast service (via Barnsley) which is every half an hour, and only a slightly bit longer than the XC service.

Have you looked into renting a flat? The door-to-door journey will be around 2 hours each way, and I imagine rental prices in SY are pretty cheap.
 

Ketosh

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Thanks everyone - looks like it was more complicated than I thought it was. Renting may well be an option, which seems a bit ridiculous for a journey that can take as little as 80 minutes.

I'm no train aficionado but I've been surprised at the cost and inconsistency of rail season tickets ..... bizarrely, the annual season ticket from Skipton to Sheffield is £12pa cheaper than the one from Keighley to Sheffield from a few stops further down the line.
 

MikeWh

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.... bizarrely, the annual season ticket from Skipton to Sheffield is £12pa cheaper than the one from Keighley to Sheffield from a few stops further down the line.

Then you can use it! A season ticket is valid for any intermediate journeys over routes covered by it's validity.
 
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