Confused by TPE Rolling stock strategy?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Gadget88, 21 Mar 2019.

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  1. Gadget88

    Gadget88 Member

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    Mod Note: Posts #1 - #3 originally in this thread.

    I am confused about these new trains are they replacing the existing fleet? If so where is the old fleet going given it’s not that old?

    Also I have seen some of these trains which look like they have a locomotive pulling it and some that look like Azuma?
     
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  3. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    This is the thread for the ones that look like the Azuma... because they are to the same design. Not to be mistaken for the loco-hauled stock, which has its thread at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-mark-5a-coaching-stock-progress.143579/

    I can see how it is confusing; they are both being built at the same time. The plan is for 19 Hitachi units and 13 Loco-hauled, all five-coach, sets to come in and each displace a three coach unit. 22 of the current Class 185s are to be handed back; the remainder displaced will be used to lengthen other services to 6 coaches.
     
  4. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

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    And 12 CAF-built 5-car EMUs, replacing the 350s, called the Class 397.
     
  5. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    In summary:

    Hitachi Class 802 Bi-mode, 19 x 5-car units: Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle and Manchester Airport - Newcastle services.
    Stadler Class 68 + CAF Mark 5 push-pull coaching stock, 13 x 5-car trains: Liverpool - Scarborough and Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough services.

    Collectively these will replace 3-car class 185 units, 22 of which are scheduled to go off lease between 13 October 2019 and 30 March 2020. The 22 released units have no future homes confirmed.

    CAF Class 397 EMU, 12 x 5-car units: Manchester/Liverpool - Glasgow/Edinburgh via WCML

    These will replace the ten 4-car class 350/4s, which are scheduled to go to West Midlands Trains from May this year.

    29 class 185s are set to be retained for North Transpennine Manchester - Hull, and South Transpennine Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes services, which are expected to be strengthened to 6-car services over the central transpennine section of each route.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2019
  6. twpsaesneg

    twpsaesneg Member

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  7. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    It's simple.

    First Group are bringing in one new megafleet on SWR to replace various 455/456/458/707s - it's much simpler to have one type of train running all "suburban" routes, easier to train staff, simpler maintenance, trains can be switched around at short notice in the event of disruption - sounds great.

    First Group are also replacing a large fleet of 185s (and ten 350s) with pure EMUs (397s), bi-mode EMUs (802s), loco hauled diesel services (68s) and retaining dozens of 185s, thus creating four fleets, making things much more complicated.

    I get the idea of bringing in new trains to replace the 185s (given the electrification planned, the need for more seats etc), but having four types of train in a relatively small franchise seems unduly complicated - if the excuse if that they couldn't order enough 802s in time (and therefore needed to buy three new fleets) then part of the reason is presumably because Newton Aycliffe are going to be busy building 802s for Hull Trains (aka First Group) and the new Open Access operator on the ECML (aka First Group). Hmm, if only there was a way round this...

    (removes tongue from cheek)
     
  8. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    but did they have an option when the orders were placed? They have been messed about by the on/off TPE electrification scheme, the need to provide services to non electrified areas off the core route, deliver more seats desperately and they missed out on the recent Bi mode frenzy.
     
  9. Philip

    Philip Established Member

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    The interesting question is where will the 22 spare 185s end up? Getting a bit late in the day now considering they're due to start going off lease later this year. I would send them to Cross Country for the time being so that they can form some 6-coach formations on the Manchester-Bristol/Bournemouth route and so concentrate most of the 5-coach Voyagers on the North East-South West route.
     
  10. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    It's worth noting that any additional 802s would have to be built at the old Ansaldo-Breda factory in Italy... based on that location's pre-Hitachi output (Manchester T-68s, Brum T-69s) that's quite a gamble!
     
  11. hibtastic

    hibtastic Member

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    Try being Northern - surely the award for most types in a fleet must go to them?
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    This is true, and I agree that First have been dealt a difficult set of cards here (compared to SWR where everything was already fully electrified for the 701s to run on), it just seems that TPE are going in one direction whilst the rest of the industry try to simplify around common fleets of one or two types of unit.

    True, but in fairness they've inherited a lot of that - if you accept that they had 150/155/156/158/319/333s and are retaining 150/155/156/158/319/333s then they are replacing the 142/144/153/321/322/323s with 170/195/331s (though many suspect the 323s may stick around and that 185s will properly join the franchise rather than just being on loan), if you assume that a 769 is just a posh 319 rather than a whole different one - so the Northern fleet in a year or two should contain slightly fewer classes.

    It's only a small step in the right direction but things are getting marginally more standard for Northern.
     
  13. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    agreed that large common fleets are much more sensible however I don't think TPE had much choice. Personally I feel they should be keeping all the 185's!
     
  14. squizzler

    squizzler Member

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    Their strategy is doing wider industry a favour because it resulted in the development of a high speed EMU to keep Bombardier and Hitachi on their toes and also demonstrates what can be done by way of modern LHCS.

    It behoves Rosco's to keep placing orders with smaller suppliers to ensure diversity of supply. According to an article I read, BR used to enforce this policy in their procurement.
     
  15. Spartacus

    Spartacus Established Member

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    Given the situation when they ordered the fleets I don't think they had much option. Who knows, it could turn out to be a blessing if a critical fault is found in one of the fleets while in service.
     
  16. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    To an extent they certainly did. For example with heritage DMU replacement there were a number of prototypes both from BREL (150s, 210s) and from Metro-Cammell (151s), then two separate fleets for "cross-country" services in the 155s (Leyland) and 156s (Metro-Cammell).
     
  17. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    BR didn't enforce it very hard - only with Networkers really, and HST engines (much good that was).
    Classes 155/156 were supposed to be dual-sourced, but the 155s were deficient so MetCam's 156 became the "standard"
    There was only ever one builder for classes 158, 323, 373, 60, 90, 91, 92 and others.

    There's a cost to diversity, as TPE is now finding out.
    The railway is full of stock which was intended to be "standard" and therefore cheap in large numbers, but never got there.
    eg class 365 was supposed to be the new standard express EMU - it only ever got one order.
     
  18. sjpowermac

    sjpowermac Member

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    HST traction motors were sourced from both Brush and GEC.
     
  19. bastien

    bastien Member

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    Did HSTs have two different manufacturer's electrical gear? Brush and GEC or something?
     
  20. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Traction motors as above; although control systems and alternators were standard. Cooler groups were also dual sourced at build (Marston and Serck), as were brake control systems and compressors (D&M and Westinghouse), but not engines.
     
  21. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    The order for the new open access service was only placed last week and Hull trains only ordered 4 units. Newton Aycliffe is still producing units for the LNER. Even with the delay in introducing Mark Vs their entry will still be much faster than waiting for another 14 x 802s. TPEs 802s are being built in Italy because of production delays e.g. 385s at Newton Aycliffe. If there had not been spare capacity at Pistoria there would have been a severe delay delivering 19 units, let alone 33.

    They look set to head to Ireland. IR have published a tender for 7 year leases for 20 secondhand DMUs to enter service by February 2020. The spec looks like its tailored to get the 185s. There is plenty of work for them in the UK in the short term but very few prospects in the medium and long term because 195s are cheaper to lease and fuel. TPE have the option to hand back another 14 x 185s. Hitachi will be desperate for work for Newton Aycliffe once the TPE order is done and a follow on order could be offered at a very attractive price.

    The 185s are not suitable for intercity services because they are too small and too expensive to run. Doubling them up will work an interim measure but because of their layout it only produces the same capacity as a Mark V set or an 802. Its better to have single units and that can do 125mph on the ECML.

    In theory yes but who will be ordering 125mph EMUs in the next few years? The west coast partnership winner might but they would need to tilt so Bombardier and Alstom will be the only manufacturers competing. East Midlands and XC franchises will have bi modes. Mark Vs are a niche product but I suspect some will be ordered.
     
  22. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Not mentioned is the possible split of the EMT Liverpool - Norwich service at Nottingham. If this happens and TPE gets the Liverpool end, will they not need to keep 185s for that?
     
  23. sjpowermac

    sjpowermac Member

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    Would a 100mph unit keep the schedules on those routes?
     
  24. aiden_g1

    aiden_g1 Member

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    TPE admitted they ideally would have ordered additional 802's over the MK V's loco-stock, but time scales and capacity were not on their side.

    Ideally all the current 185s should remain with TPE. Mainly for doubling up on busier services, but also for future and additional services, such as taking on the Liverpool to Norwich route from EMT. Of course any such plans for this has been put further back, with the extension to the EMT franchise.
     
  25. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    If the ROSCO (Eversholt) has done a deal for the spare 185s with another operator before any split is decided, TPE will need to think again.
     
  26. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    Or do what every other operator has done and factored in time taken to deliver the fleet into the procurement...
     
  27. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    Those of us trying to use the Sheffield-Manchester route have been promised 6 carriage trains for too long. Being crammed together is a total turn off. Sitting on the floor in first. Unable to even get into first despite having a reserved seat. Passengers waiting for the next 4 coach East Midlands service or taking the Northern stopping all stations Pacer in desperation.

    So we keep hearing of a multiplicity of Nova trains coming soon. We hear of 6 coaches on a Liverpool - Nottingham. The long suffering passenger wants action now. The problem has existed for years. In the meantime passenger numbers, perversely given the travelling conditions, continue to grow. The projections given to the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme public inquiry are already being met years in advance of forecast.

    Given rail rolling stock is expected to last 30+ years I have fears for the future with all these stop/start small orders from factories set up for specific orders with no follow on work in sight.

    Some of these small orders will be very limiting for their operators and hard to move on. I'm happy to ride in 185s, and see the advantages in using them on Liverpool-Nottinggam (even to Norwich), but inability to walk between 2 units is a practical operating limitation adding to station dwell times.
     
  28. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    The May timetable indicates that the TPE Cleethorpes train will have to occupy Manchester Airport Platform 3 at the same time as the Northern Liverpool via Warrington (which arrives later and leaves earlier).

    Double occupancy of Airport platforms is only permitted when both trains are 4-car or shorter, so it seems unlikely that you will see 6-cars in the Hope Valley anytime soon.
     
  29. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    It's what I feared, although not all are going into 3 and some 6 coach trains are already running! Maybe detaching 3 at Piccadilly?
     
    Last edited: 23 Mar 2019
  30. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Well, the westbound and eastbound services are generally booked into different platforms at Piccadilly and I doubt that the time allowed for the reversal would be sufficient to detach/attach a unit.

    Platforms can, of course, be changed, but presumably TPE must have input the services into the timetable database as single 185s for them to be planned like this.
     
  31. DimTim

    DimTim Member

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    Desiro units on SWR have half cabs e.g. class 444, 450 etc. Allowing walk through. Is there any merit in converting the cab at one end only - to allow a 6 coach train rather than 2 x 3? Would allow units to be used in both 3 & 6 carriage formation
     
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