Confusing platforming at Leeds

[yorkie]

The 2107 Leeds to Ilkley has been timetabled to depart from Platform 6b, while the 2108 Leeds to Preston has been timetabled to depart from Platform 6c.

The photographs shows the departure board showing these departures, and the Preston train can be seen behind a "Platform 6b" sign.

I'm informed by a member of railway staff based in the North who is familiar with this arrangement that train planning at Milton Keynes thinks this is a good idea, but I would have thought an alternative platform could be used?

(Needless to say, the Preston train did not depart on time!)

 

[87015]

It's in the TOCs gift to change it. That's some quality blame passing to declare it's MK's "good idea", is this mystery member of staff a planner themselves?

 

[Adam0984]

But the Preston is wholly on 6C. It seems to work on the premise that the one on the buffers is on 6C the next one is on 6B and the 3rd train is on 6A and doesn't take into account train lengths. One solution would be to lengthen the lettered section but then if you had 2 small trains both would be on the same platform section so would be confusing too. I'd imagine that the Ilkley wouldn't have been far enough to call it 6A.
To be fair taking that into account it's awful planning to put a 07 and 08 on the same platform

 

[The Planner]

Anyone can suggest its changed, station staff, signallers etc have all asked for stuff to be altered in the past. Pre 2010 someone from the TPC could have popped down and asked if it would work.

 

[Andyh82]

I didn't even realise that the bays had "C"'s, do they ever have 3 trains in at once?

I know the through platforms regularly have multiple trains including all the way down at D end

 

[yorksrob]

I didn't even realise that the bays had "C"'s, do they ever have 3 trains in at once?

I know the through platforms regularly have multiple trains including all the way down at D end

I think 10, 13 and 17 only have a and b.

The longer platforms on the North side of the station have a, b and c. I think I have occasionally seen three trains in them, particularly platform 1.

 

[lejog]

The 2107 Leeds to Ilkley has been timetabled to depart from Platform 6b, while the 2108 Leeds to Preston has been timetabled to depart from Platform 6c.

The photographs shows the departure board showing these departures, and the Preston train can be seen behind a "Platform 6b" sign.

I'm informed by a member of railway staff based in the North who is familiar with this arrangement that train planning at Milton Keynes thinks this is a good idea, but I would have thought an alternative platform could be used?

(Needless to say, the Preston train did not depart on time!)

As an occasional user of the 21:08 service, I think its great when it departs from Platform 6c right next to the barriers, accustomed as I am to a hike to the nether regions of the the D sections of the through platforms which is the norm for York-Blackpool and Blackpool-York services.

It is of course an unusual service in that it starts from Leeds rather than York. I did check the incoming stock once and it was formed from the incoming 20:11 from Victoria. If this is normal, Platform 6 which is free of VTEC services in the evening is probably a good place for a train with a 1hr dwell time.

You don't say when you saw this, but I haven't experienced significant delays. I see on Friday the 21.08 left 45seconds late departing from Platform 6 after the 21:07, while last night it departed from Platform 9.

 

[yorkie]

I observed this on Thursday.

Anyone can suggest its changed, station staff, signallers etc have all asked for stuff to be altered in the past.....

Maybe they have; how long does it take to change something like this roughly?

My understanding from speaking to numerous Network Rail staff (or ex-Network Rail staff in some cases) who work in train planning or associated roles is that Network Rail have lost many good planners who (very understandably) did not want to move to Milton Keynes, and quality of work has, in some cases, suffered as a result.

 

[johntea]

I think 10, 13 and 17 only have a and b.

The longer platforms on the North side of the station have a, b and c. I think I have occasionally seen three trains in them, particularly platform 1.

1A is a devil of a platform to get to when you're in a rush, particularly when I used to commute between Castleford and Saltaire...train pulls into Leeds on 17B train departs Leeds on platform 1A

 

[lejog]

I observed this on Thursday.

Okay, as far as I can see on Thursday the incoming stock was the even earlier 19:43 from Victoria.

I'm with 87015, if you or the mystery member of staff would like to put forward a change, perhaps you could suggest an alternative platform, given Northern want a dwell time of 85minutes and given the high number of arrivals and departures from Leeds between 19.43 and 21.08.

Edit: From the above realtraintimes link, this appears to be very much a "problem" of Northern's making, the obvious candidate to form the 21:08 is the incoming 20:26 from Blackpool, however that leaves at 20:36 to Victoria. Perhaps there is some operational need to swap 158s between the two routes, which is only possible with the two Blackpool/Preston services that start at Leeds.

 

[The Planner]

I observed this on Thursday.


Maybe they have; how long does it take to change something like this roughly?

My understanding from speaking to numerous Network Rail staff (or ex-Network Rail staff in some cases) who work in train planning or associated roles is that Network Rail have lost many good planners who (very understandably) did not want to move to Milton Keynes, and quality of work has, in some cases, suffered as a result.

A few phone calls should get it sorted. Worst case should be the next timetable period (not next timetable). I won't comment on the last bit but "some cases" made me laugh.

 

[yorkie]

...but "some cases" made me laugh.

That was a big understatement

 

[Ianigsy]

It wouldn't surprise me if there was an unofficial policy of using the platforms nearest the barriers at Leeds in the evening- the through platforms are often busy with terminating trains which need to go on to Neville Hill. It should also mean that platform staff are concentrated in a smaller area and there shouldn't be as many inebriated passengers getting themselves into mischief by haring across the station at the last minute. Leeds station can be a bit of a zoo on Friday and Saturday evenings- passing through at around 10.15 last night I was amazed at one "slightly tipsy" woman who managed to come down one of the escalators phone in hand without going flying.

 

[yorksrob]

It should also mean that platform staff are concentrated in a smaller area and there shouldn't be as many inebriated passengers getting themselves into mischief by haring across the station at the last minute.

If they're really serious about this, they should do something about the three minute connections between their last trains. Haring across the station is often the only option for people catching last trains home.

 

[Andyh82]

It wouldn't surprise me if there was an unofficial policy of using the platforms nearest the barriers at Leeds in the evening- the through platforms are often busy with terminating trains which need to go on to Neville Hill. It should also mean that platform staff are concentrated in a smaller area and there shouldn't be as many inebriated passengers getting themselves into mischief by haring across the station at the last minute. Leeds station can be a bit of a zoo on Friday and Saturday evenings- passing through at around 10.15 last night I was amazed at one "slightly tipsy" woman who managed to come down one of the escalators phone in hand without going flying.

Although a large number of passengers will be heading for Transpennine Express, and they always use 15/16.

The D ends of the through platforms are the worst, and although I know why they do it, normal passengers must wonder why they've placed the train all the way out there, often outside of the station roof, with no trains in B or C.

 

[30907]

If they're really serious about this, they should do something about the three minute connections between their last trains. Haring across the station is often the only option for people catching last trains home.

From where to where, in particular? IIRC 10 mins is the connection time at Leeds.

 

[yorksrob]

From where to where, in particular? IIRC 10 mins is the connection time at Leeds.

In particular connections to the Hallam line from the Hull and Settle lines.

 

[rustbucket]

From where to where, in particular? IIRC 10 mins is the connection time at Leeds.

10 mins allows a comfortable change - 3 mins is perfectly achievable normally but requires nobody on the escalators with large suitcases and moving at the pace of an asthmatic slug....

 

[yorksrob]

10 mins allows a comfortable change - 3 mins is perfectly achievable normally but requires nobody on the escalators with large suitcases and moving at the pace of an asthmatic slug....

That depends on whereabouts within the station the trains are.

 

[yorkie]

From where to where, in particular? IIRC 10 mins is the connection time at Leeds.

I think the example yorksrob has in mind is the 2234 arrival (ex-Ribblehead) onto the 2237 to Sheffield via Castleford.

It's not practicable to take an earlier train into Leeds if you want an evening in Ribblehead (or somewhere else between there and Skipton), so it's a risk in that if the train is missed, he'll need to get a train to a location that isn't quite ideal as his local station, and then a taxi for the last leg, but it is a risk worth taking (the alternative is not to do the journey).

There really ought to be later last trains from Leeds (but I believe that is happening for many destinations in future timetables).

 

[johntea]

I think the example yorksrob has in mind is the 2234 arrival (ex-Ribblehead) onto the 2237 to Sheffield via Castleford.

It's not practicable to take an earlier train into Leeds if you want an evening in Ribblehead (or somewhere else between there and Skipton), so it's a risk in that if the train is missed, he'll need to get a train to a location that isn't quite ideal as his local station, and then a taxi for the last leg, but it is a risk worth taking (the alternative is not to do the journey).

There really ought to be later last trains from Leeds (but I believe that is happening for many destinations in future timetables).

This used to be a tight but fairly comfortable connection until they added the stop at Apperley Bridge

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the example yorksrob has in mind is the 2234 arrival (ex-Ribblehead) onto the 2237 to Sheffield via Castleford.

It's not practicable to take an earlier train into Leeds if you want an evening in Ribblehead (or somewhere else between there and Skipton), so it's a risk in that if the train is missed, he'll need to get a train to a location that isn't quite ideal as his local station, and then a taxi for the last leg, but it is a risk worth taking (the alternative is not to do the journey).

There really ought to be later last trains from Leeds (but I believe that is happening for many destinations in future timetables).

Locations that are stabling points get a better late-night service: hence stations to Huddersfield and Skipton don't do too bad (could be better of course) whereas Ilkley and Pontefract/Knottingley really suffer.

 

[Adam0984]

Okay, as far as I can see on Thursday the incoming stock was the even earlier 19:43 from Victoria.

I'm with 87015, if you or the mystery member of staff would like to put forward a change, perhaps you could suggest an alternative platform, given Northern want a dwell time of 85minutes and given the high number of arrivals and departures from Leeds between 19.43 and 21.08.

Edit: From the above realtraintimes link, this appears to be very much a "problem" of Northern's making, the obvious candidate to form the 21:08 is the incoming 20:26 from Blackpool, however that leaves at 20:36 to Victoria. Perhaps there is some operational need to swap 158s between the two routes, which is only possible with the two Blackpool/Preston services that start at Leeds.

The reason for it starting in Leeds is thats the inbound working from York that would usually go through to Blackpool/ Preston is a 2 car 158 but a 3 car is needed for the following morning. One of the reasons for a late departure and why it's possibly on 6C is that the Blackpool driver brings in the 2020 York to Leeds then goes straight down from platform 7 to 6 to take out the 2108

 

[yorksrob]

This used to be a tight but fairly comfortable connection until they added the stop at Apperley Bridge

This is true. Goodness knows what possessed them to stop an express, rather than one of the stopping services. There is, I believe, a last service from Skipton which would be more suitable.

 

[Tractor37]

This is true. Goodness knows what possessed them to stop an express, rather than one of the stopping services. There is, I believe, a last service from Skipton which would be more suitable.

The Ribblehead is not an express service, it forms the 21.48 all stations from Skipton in lieu of the normal half hourly EMU.

 

[lejog]

The reason for it starting in Leeds is thats the inbound working from York that would usually go through to Blackpool/ Preston is a 2 car 158 but a 3 car is needed for the following morning. One of the reasons for a late departure and why it's possibly on 6C is that the Blackpool driver brings in the 2020 York to Leeds then goes straight down from platform 7 to 6 to take out the 2108

Ah, thank you. In hindsight, swapping 2 and 3 car 158s between the two routes was a reasonably obvious operational requirement that could explain the extended dwell time.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the example yorksrob has in mind is the 2234 arrival (ex-Ribblehead) onto the 2237 to Sheffield via Castleford.

It's not practicable to take an earlier train into Leeds if you want an evening in Ribblehead (or somewhere else between there and Skipton), so it's a risk in that if the train is missed, he'll need to get a train to a location that isn't quite ideal as his local station, and then a taxi for the last leg, but it is a risk worth taking (the alternative is not to do the journey).

There really ought to be later last trains from Leeds (but I believe that is happening for many destinations in future timetables).

The Ribblehead is not an express service, it forms the 21.48 all stations from Skipton in lieu of the normal half hourly EMU.

True, but I thought they didn't stop between Leeds and Shipley !

That said, all this could be mitigated with a minor adjustment to the departure of the last Hallam.

There's also a formerly useful Hull service which used to arrive in platform 16 at 22:35 which now gets in at forty minutes past, destroying another tight connection.

 

[Tractor37]

True, but I thought they didn't stop between Leeds and Shipley !

The Leeds - Skipton's and vice versa stop at Apperley Bridge in the evenings as the Leeds - Bradford Forster Square trains don't run.

 

[Starmill]

Locations that are stabling points get a better late-night service: hence stations to Huddersfield and Skipton don't do too bad (could be better of course) whereas Ilkley and Pontefract/Knottingley really suffer.

Yeah but only because we are talking Northern in Yorkshire though. There is a 2327 Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop and yet that does not stable in Glossop, despite arriving after midnight. The 2317 Manchester Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham doesn't stable in Chester, it comes back - despite not arriving there until 0044. The 2338 to Crewe does not stable there either - it works back in service.

 

[Starmill]

This is true. Goodness knows what possessed them to stop an express, rather than one of the stopping services. There is, I believe, a last service from Skipton which would be more suitable.

The final Shipley to Leeds service of the day, the 2217 departure from Skipton already calls at Apperley Bridge - of course, it doesn't call at Kirkstall Forge, usefully...