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ConHome: Close 30% of rail stations

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jha4ceb

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Article here: http://conservativehome.blogs.com/p...the-cost-of-railways-and-keep-fares-down.html

Tim Leunig said:
How to cut the cost of railways and keep fares down

Too many decisions about trains are made by engineers or people who like trains (e.g. Andrew Adonis). Trains get you from A to B, nothing more. They are well-suited to dense linear journeys, such as commuting or journeys between large cities. They are ill-suited to heterogeneous journeys, for which cars are more appropriate.

The vast majority of well-used rail journeys are London commuter or airport journeys. These account for all of the top 20 journeys by passenger numbers (Source: ATOC data, derived from LENNON). Policy should concentrate on these journeys – particularly as some are slower than in the 1950s.

We can cut costs by:


  1. Ending investment that offers marginal benefits to passengers. Electrification is a good example. It improves acceleration and braking times, making it well-suited to commuter networks. But unless you build a dedicated high speed line, or upgrade existing lines to WCML standards, it makes little difference to journey times for long distance routes. An electric Intercity 225 takes about 2 minutes less from London to York than a diesel Intercity 125, even though the former accelerates faster and can travel at 140mph rather than 125mph. What matters is the track. Taxpayers and passengers would get better value for money by keeping the 125s and their carriages going, and not proceeding with the new Hitachi SET trains. (The bi-mode version is, as Roger Ford and everyone else have pointed out, bonkers).
  2. Long distance projects are glamorous, but offer very poor value for money (see Leunig, in Paradoxes of Modernisation, and Eddington for more details). HS2 should not proceed. The regional benefits are miniscule – all HS2 will do is make Manchester as close to London as Birmingham currently is. Birmingham is not richer than Manchester. My LSE colleague Henry Overman is the expert.
  3. We should accept that where passenger flows are too low, lines should close. Cross subsidies within rail make little economic or social sense.
  4. Lots of stations should close. The least heavily used 50% of stations account for less than 3.6% of traffic. The least heavily used 30% of stations account for less than 1% of passengers. (Source: ORR station use data) It is a preposterous waste of money to keep them open. We have more little used stations than before Beeching.
  5. Create a third class on London commuter routes – standing room only. Taking seats out is much cheaper than lengthening trains and platforms. A £1 flat fare standing room only deal would make economic and political sense. Journey times are under 30 minutes, and many people are standing anyway.
This is reflective of the concern that if the coalition u-turns on rail price increases it is likely to also quietly decimate rail investment -- or worse, close railways.
 
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starrymarkb

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It's an opinion piece disagreeing with the governments policies. He's entitled to say it, just as you are entitled to disagree with it. Best way to respond would be in kind with a similar piece to argue against his views with valid reasoning.
 

Ferret

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From the blog:-

(5) Create a third class on London commuter routes – standing room only. Taking seats out is much cheaper than lengthening trains and platforms. A £1 flat fare standing room only deal would make economic and political sense. Journey times are under 30 minutes, and many people are standing anyway.

I'm sorry sir, you're sitting down with a standing only ticket - that will be a brand new ticket.....

Nuff said?
 

asylumxl

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From the blog:-

(5) Create a third class on London commuter routes – standing room only. Taking seats out is much cheaper than lengthening trains and platforms. A £1 flat fare standing room only deal would make economic and political sense. Journey times are under 30 minutes, and many people are standing anyway.

I'm sorry sir, you're sitting down with a standing only ticket - that will be a brand new ticket.....

Nuff said?

Given the average age of Conservative voters, perhaps they wish to reinact their old memories of 3rd class carriages in the Victorian era...
 

blacknight

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Heterogeneous? What sort of journey is that & is it safe:lol:Wonders of secondary modern education system me thinks not.
 

starrymarkb

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To Play Devils Advocate - He may have a point with some of the smaller stations though. Is it worth keeping places that see one train per week or only see 50 or so passengers per year. You could ask if rail is the best means to serve these places...
 

pemma

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How much expenditure does keeping these stations open require? Some small stations just seem to get a repaint every 10 years, timetables put up and taken down at timetable change dates and an odd replacement light bulb when a passenger has reported one as being out-of-order.
 

cuccir

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It would be ridiculous to claim that there are no train stations in the country which could be shut with relatively low harm.

The notion of just cutting the bottom 30%, however, is nonsense - it needs looking at on a station by station and route by route basis. Some stations have low use because of poor service or unmet demand.

Create a third class on London commuter routes – standing room only. Taking seats out is much cheaper than lengthening trains and platforms. A £1 flat fare standing room only deal would make economic and political sense. Journey times are under 30 minutes, and many people are standing anyway.

This is a much better idea, although it would require refurbishment of stock which would come with a cost. And I think £1 seems a bit low, but offering good value standing-only season tickets would be an option on these.
 

Nym

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And on services with standing room only, who is going to police people who are standing vice those sitting, anyone else seeing this ending up as, "I've got a seated season ticket so I should get on the service first, you have to wait on the platform"
 

Pen Mill

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To Play Devils Advocate - He may have a point with some of the smaller stations though. Is it worth keeping places that see one train per week or only see 50 or so passengers per year. You could ask if rail is the best means to serve these places...
For me , the question is , are they staffed ? if so , then there is a definite case for closure. If they are not staffed then , make them into request stops.

If there is a station building , sell it off and isolate it from the platform.
One that springs to mind in a village I once lived in is Padgate on the CLC Liverpool to Manchester line, It's now a fish & chip shop !. The line is busy with TPE & Northern services.
The station had 34,000 entries and exits on the last survey I've seen so not quite so sleepy but unmanned all the same.

I realise that NR woulkd have to do periodic maintenance inspections but is this a costly job ?
 

Oswyntail

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Given the average age of Conservative voters, perhaps they wish to reinact their old memories of 3rd class carriages in the Victorian era...
Ho ho ho!
However, according to Ipsos MORI:-
"In 2001 18-24 year olds were more pro-Conservative and less pro-Labour than 25-34 year olds although 35-54 year olds and voters 55+ were increasingly likely to vote Conservative and decreasingly likely to vote Labour.
In 2005 18-24 year olds were again more likely than 25-34 year olds to vote Conservative and but both age groups were equally likely to vote Labour. Again 35-54 year olds and voters 55+ were increasingly likely to vote Conservative and decreasingly likely to vote Labour.
The 2010 data do illustrate that , broadly speaking, the likelihood of voting Conservative increased with age: 30% of voters aged 18- 24 voted Conservative compared with 44% of voters 65+."
Commentators put this down to the socialising factors prevalent when people approached adulthood, rather than any actual appeal of any one party to a particular age group, though there is also a tendency for voters to become more "set in their ways" as they get older. Hence the quote from Georges
Clemenceau (1841-1929): "Not to be a socialist at twenty is proof of
want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head."

As for the article itself, much of it is saying that the various transport modes should play to their strengths, an approach few would disagree with. The problem comes when people like the author either don't understand or positively distort those strengths.
 

WestCoast

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And on services with standing room only, who is going to police people who are standing vice those sitting, anyone else seeing this ending up as, "I've got a seated season ticket so I should get on the service first, you have to wait on the platform"

In any case, you don't pay for a seat now, you pay to be carried between two points (and not necessarily on a train!). However, the amount of times we hear "I pay £££££s for a seat" demonstrates that people are perhaps unaware of that....
 

eastdyke

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And on services with standing room only, who is going to police people who are standing vice those sitting, anyone else seeing this ending up as, "I've got a seated season ticket so I should get on the service first, you have to wait on the platform"

Perhaps the intention would be to create carriages with no seats at all. Cattle trucks?:lol:
 

Nym

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Perhaps the intention would be to create carriages with no seats at all. Cattle trucks?:lol:

Shhh, people from First West Coast may be reading this thread...

And yes, we pay for carriage from one place to another, I doubt I'll frequently be able to get a seat on my commute when I move down to Hertfordshire...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In any case, you don't pay for a seat now, you pay to be carried between two points (and not necessarily on a train!). However, the amount of times we hear "I pay £££££s for a seat" demonstrates that people are perhaps unaware of that....

Quite...

The amount of people in this world like that never fails, people who would say things like, "You have to sell me this copy of the telegraph because it's your job!" (Back in the days of working for the 4th Rich)
 

Aictos

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It's just one man's view, it's hardly going to be policy overnight - why panic?
 

route:oxford

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It's best not to get overexcited about a posting in a blog. It isn't that much different to a posting on a single-issue forum.

As to standing only. Well, it would probably be more comfortable than sitting on a 2+3 Thames turbo.
 

asylumxl

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It's best not to get overexcited about a posting in a blog. It isn't that much different to a posting on a single-issue forum.

As to standing only. Well, it would probably be more comfortable than sitting on a 2+3 Thames turbo.

[Completely OT]

Can't help but think of this...

[/Completely OT]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ho ho ho!
However, according to Ipsos MORI:- (etc. etc. etc.)

Statistics do not get in the way of making a good satirical comment for me ;).
 

tbtc

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"The least heavily used 30% of stations account for less than 1% of passengers. (Source: ORR station use data)..."

Can anyone argue with the facts here? Rather than just the "any cut is a bad cut" hysteria, is this figure accurate?

To Play Devils Advocate - He may have a point with some of the smaller stations though. Is it worth keeping places that see one train per week or only see 50 or so passengers per year. You could ask if rail is the best means to serve these places...

There are some stations which are clearly uneconomical. In some cases (like Sugar Loaf) you can argue that they serve a distinct market with no alternative public transport provision. In other cases (like Golf Street, which is a stone's throw from a busy bus route) it's always going to be a lost cause.

Heavy rail is great, but it's not the only solution, and there are some reasonable cuts that could be made if we were prepared to bite the bullet.

It would be ridiculous to claim that there are no train stations in the country which could be shut with relatively low harm

I agree
 

route:oxford

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"The least heavily used 30% of stations account for less than 1% of passengers. (Source: ORR station use data)..."

Can anyone argue with the facts here? Rather than just the "any cut is a bad cut" hysteria, is this figure accurate?

I'm fairly sure it is completely wrong. It should be "fewer than 1%" shouldn't it?
 

route:oxford

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But surely statistics are TRUTH and cannot be argued against;)

Given that most road accidents happen at low speed on residential roads involving drivers that are stone-cold sober...

Statistically speaking, the safest drivers drive at great speed on main roads whilst blind drunk.
 

flymo

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Quickly crunching a few numbers from the ORR 2010/2011 data it would appear that of the 2531 stations listed, 30% of that is around 759. Of these 759 or so that equates to around 9,211,797 passenger entries (A). (although I just used entries, entries and exits would be more accurate I think)

The total entries for the reporting period being 1,156,896,521 (B) by adding all the entries.

So the lower 30% would be (A / B) x 100 or around 0.8 % of the total.

Disclaimer - Only very rough numbers for quick calculations. There may be errors so don't shoot me.... :D
 

Deerfold

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I'm fairly sure it is completely wrong. It should be "fewer than 1%" shouldn't it?

That was my first thought - it seems a shame that increasing numbers of people who want to get their opinions heard have poor grammar and other writing skills.
 

185

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But surely statistics are TRUTH and cannot be argued against;)


Statistics can be made to look like anything using spin.

Just look at how absolutely great some of our god awful train companies are.
 

HSTEd

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As someone further up the thread pointed out, what is the actual expenditure on these stations?
A tiny electric bill for some street-lights and the cost of changing the timetables twice a year, and perhaps a visit once every couple of days by a sweeper who has a dozen or more stations to cover?

We need proper cost benefit analyses.
 
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