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Connecting services for passenger trains.

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Condor7

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i was watching a video recently that appeared to show a Carlisle to Leeds train being held for a late running Glasgow to Euston express. Would this be correct?

I remember it was common practice in the past to do this, but I thought that had largely died out once the penalties for late running where introduced. So are certain passenger trains still held for other services and if so how do you tell which services these are?
 
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A Challenge

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There are certain guaranteed last connections on the underground, detailed in the Working Timetables, by line.
 

dk1

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Connections are often held in many parts of the UK if it is operationally convenient.
 

james60059

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I went to Ireland last year via rail and sail, and the GWR departure from Cardiff to Swansea was late (09:52 departure), and the 11:00 SWA - FGH was held at Swansea, not only for us but also for the Milford Haven service which was right up the backside of the GWR service. We left 6 late and still arrived at FGH on time, was a lively Class 150/2 though :lol:
 

AlbertBeale

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There are certain guaranteed last connections on the underground, detailed in the Working Timetables, by line.

I suspect they are fewer than they used to be. I remember, for example, that years ago the last southbound Vic and Bloo would wait for each other at Oxford Circus (and for one of the Centrals - can't remember whether E/B or W/B was the last one through); the station staff [remember them?] would "sweep up" the people getting off and see them through to the other platform before letting the train go. Similarly, Picc and Bloo at Piccadilly Circus many years back. A couple of times more recently that I've been on a last train in the centre, this hasn't happened.

Is there an easily accessible list of the connections that are still guaranteed?
 

craigybagel

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Still pretty regular for us at TfW to be held for connections - either off our own services or for those from the likes of GWR at Newport or Virgin at Crewe, Chester and Llandudno Junction. The Fishguard mentioned above is also a good example.
 

Ianigsy

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It seems to happen at Inverness still - I was on a late running ex-Kyle train last week when the guard announced that a two minute hold had been agreed on a Glasgow train at Inverness.

In the original example, if the Carlisle-Leeds train was the last of the day, under today's regime it may well be worth accepting the delay charges rather than pay for taxis for anybody wanting intermediate stations on the S&C and any delay repay, which would amount to paying people to travel by train. The Carlisle route is often the most economical route from West Yorkshire to Scotland, particularly if you aren't travelling from Leeds itself.
 

700007

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Connections are usually done if it is known that there is a large passenger flow from the mainline to the branch line, and as stated earlier, is operationally convenient to do so (i.e. Will not conflict with other paths, perhaps due to it being a single line). GWR I have noticed seems to have a lot of these across their network, particularly the more rural lines on their network like in Devon and Cornwall.

Examples of connections on GWR patch in this case:

  • Twyford to Henley-on-Thames: If a train is running late coming from London, it will be held up to five minutes I think before it goes up the branch line. This is possible because the entire Henley branch is single track, so cannot conflict with movements of other trains and also because majority of passengers on this line are travelling from the London direction.
A case where this isn't possible:

  • West Ealing to Greenford: whilst majority of passengers come from the London direction, the line is used by other trains, particularly freight. Any delay could conflict with movements at junctions particularly. Connections cannot be held and it is more often than not sadly that passengers don't make the branch line. I would like to hope something will be done about this later.
 

dk1

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GWR seems to work in well with XC in the south west. I have waited so many times at Newton Abbot for connections onto the Torbay branch with often a healthy load of passengers transferring.
 

_toommm_

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Northern are quite good with allowing the Barrow to Carlisle trains to be held for the inevitably late running Airport to Barrow trains.

The guard on my train today didn't even try - he didn't even acknowledge there was a delay. A quick tweet to Northern gave us a hold, and both station staff and the guard at Barrow knew.
 

fishtastic

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Northern are quite good with allowing the Barrow to Carlisle trains to be held for the inevitably late running Airport to Barrow trains.

The guard on my train today didn't even try - he didn't even acknowledge there was a delay. A quick tweet to Northern gave us a hold, and both station staff and the guard at Barrow knew.

I used to use that line a lot, sometimes I'd be getting the last train out of Barrow north to Millom, the train to Barrow was running late and arrived 5 minutes after the Millom train was scheduled to depart.


Last time I was in that situation around a dozen people needed to get taxis and this takes time to organise, time to arrive, and then it takes longer thru' the winding roads to Millom than by train. Utterly disgraceful, I'm sure most people on the train would have been happy for a few minutes delay as they know they'd be in that situation themselves one day.

Before privatisation, the conductor would come down the train and ask if people had onward connections and would call ahead. You'd often find yourself running down a platform whilst the conductor of your connecting train was waving you on, in a light hearted way.
 

Deerfold

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I've seen last trains at Leeds held for a few minutes for incoming London trains - things like Ilkley or Skipton services where there's minimal chance of disruption to other services.
 

clagmonster

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I used to use that line a lot, sometimes I'd be getting the last train out of Barrow north to Millom, the train to Barrow was running late and arrived 5 minutes after the Millom train was scheduled to depart.


Last time I was in that situation around a dozen people needed to get taxis and this takes time to organise, time to arrive, and then it takes longer thru' the winding roads to Millom than by train. Utterly disgraceful, I'm sure most people on the train would have been happy for a few minutes delay as they know they'd be in that situation themselves one day.

Before privatisation, the conductor would come down the train and ask if people had onward connections and would call ahead. You'd often find yourself running down a platform whilst the conductor of your connecting train was waving you on, in a light hearted way.
In that position, it is likely that the hold would require the traincrew and signallers at the manual boxes to work overtime. It is possible that one of the staff concerned was not willing, or unable to as it would take them over their hours or under the minimum rest before their next shift. It could of course be that control or the company preferred taxis over the hold for some other reason.
 

fishtastic

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In that position, it is likely that the hold would require the traincrew and signallers at the manual boxes to work overtime. It is possible that one of the staff concerned was not willing, or unable to as it would take them over their hours or under the minimum rest before their next shift. It could of course be that control or the company preferred taxis over the hold for some other reason.

If a train leaving Barrow 5 minutes late would do that then we have a really big problem around staffing of both train crew and signals.
 

Starmill

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At Inverness, I've found that the Far North and Kyle line departures almost always wait at least 5 minutes to preserve the connections from mainline arrivals. These ones could really stuff your day up if they were missed!
Still pretty regular for us at TfW to be held for connections - either off our own services or for those from the likes of GWR at Newport or Virgin at Crewe, Chester and Llandudno Junction. The Fishguard mentioned above is also a good example.
On Friday night I was on the 2110 London Euston to Preston, which ran almost half an hour late into Crewe. The final Shrewsbury service (2315) was held to allow the passengers from our train to cross over for it, and the guard and station staff had clearly become used to this arrangement.

Unfortunately, the final service to Manchester, the 2312 Northern service was not held, and departed just in time for me to spot its tail lights drawing out of platform 1! Still, not to worry, it was Virgin Trains who were picking up the bill for our taxi onwards to Manchester!
 

Islandexpress

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A few weeks ago, I was on the 1833 ex Kings Cross to Bradford FS service on a journey to Menston. The advertised change for this service is an easy same platform change at Shipley for a Bradford FS - Ilkley train. The LNER was unexpectedly late ex Leeds and then sat for ages outside Shipley station awaiting my Ilkley train to pass through. Tried to complain to station staff at Shipley but only a shrug of shoulders and an ‘always change at Leeds’ comment. Anyways took myself to the Fox that backs onto Shipley station. Nice relaxed pint and a full 60 minutes delay repay claim! Worked out fine!
 

StarCrossing

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GWR at Newport
Sadly, in the 15 years I've been changing (say 10 times a year) from GWR to TFW/ATW at Newport, the connection hasn't been held once. This is a little frustrating as the Portsmouth-Cardiff services are quite often delayed. I'm sure there are good reasons though - I'm not moaning!
 

LowLevel

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Greater Anglia seem to be quite good at managing connections between the IC service and the branch lines at Norwich. Relations with EMT have been a bit strained but they'll still usually pick up the extra stops if the Anglia is cancelled or wait if the train from Yarmouth is late. Could do without their managers interfering in our dispatch procedure with the precious Norwich in 90 service, poking their noses in where it's not appreciated while the guard/driver/signalbox come to a clear understanding owing to Network Rail's crappy off indicators failing all the time.

At Grantham LNER and EMT is a bit hit and miss. Personally if I can see the other train arriving I'll wait, if I can't I leave it up to control. Can't dispatch your train nowadays with people running at it after all.
 

30907

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A few weeks ago, I was on the 1833 ex Kings Cross to Bradford FS service on a journey to Menston. The advertised change for this service is an easy same platform change at Shipley for a Bradford FS - Ilkley train. The LNER was unexpectedly late ex Leeds and then sat for ages outside Shipley station awaiting my Ilkley train to pass through. Tried to complain to station staff at Shipley but only a shrug of shoulders and an ‘always change at Leeds’ comment. Anyways took myself to the Fox that backs onto Shipley station. Nice relaxed pint and a full 60 minutes delay repay claim! Worked out fine!
Good drinking move but NRE and LNER tells me the connection is at Leeds. Except for Baildon of course.
 

Islandexpress

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Good drinking move but NRE and LNER tells me the connection is at Leeds. Except for Baildon of course.
Possibly changed after timetable change? Was definitely ‘a thing’, and got paid out! Booked through employers third party system, but must just ‘scrape’ off nre or a toc?
 

The Prisoner

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Very impressed that TfW held the Gerald at Newport this evening.

I legged it across from the 1726 arrival from Bristol TM which was running 4-5 late and came in on platform 1 (which if you don’t know Newport means legging it all the way down to the end of 1 and then up and over the quite steep footbridge at the end) - could have ambled over as the platform staff kept pointing at the footbridge to keep the train unlocked whilst the guard was keen to set off on time (1731).

Only needed maybe 180 seconds and everyone caught it

Real question though is why is this an advertised connection? The train from Bristol started at Portsmouth and only gives 4-5 minutes if on time - going down to the end of the platform, up and over would take people with luggage at least that amount of time and I’d suggest there were 30-40 who made that change there.

Honestly think there should be an 8 minute change time there, but anyway well done TfW for some common sense
 
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Condor7

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Good drinking move but NRE and LNER tells me the connection is at Leeds. Except for Baildon of course.

Very impressed that TfW held the Gerald at Newport this evening.

Real question though is why is this an advertised connection?

Where are these connections mentioned or advertised then, is it in the small hand timetables, the National timetable, or on line? Thanks.
 

The Prisoner

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NRE app for the Bristol - Wrexham journey I mentioned above
 

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craigybagel

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Sadly, in the 15 years I've been changing (say 10 times a year) from GWR to TFW/ATW at Newport, the connection hasn't been held once. This is a little frustrating as the Portsmouth-Cardiff services are quite often delayed. I'm sure there are good reasons though - I'm not moaning!

During the day its rare alright. The need to keep the path across the WCML at Crewe and on to Manchester, or over the single track Wrexham - Chester section for Holyhead services, and also the amount of other trains coming in from Cardiff that need a platform at Newport means there isn't really much opportunity. But in the evening after about 2000 when congestion is lower and the wait for a missed train is longer, it's very common for TfW to wait for GWR. Usually for Paddingtons, but I was held for a Portsmouth only last week.
 

221129

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ScotRail and LNER are often good for holds, had the last southbound LNER off Edinburgh held for a single passenger doing an unusual move from Newcastle to Newcastle via Edinburgh after his arrival on XC was delayed.
 

StarCrossing

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During the day its rare alright. The need to keep the path across the WCML at Crewe and on to Manchester, or over the single track Wrexham - Chester section for Holyhead services, and also the amount of other trains coming in from Cardiff that need a platform at Newport means there isn't really much opportunity. But in the evening after about 2000 when congestion is lower and the wait for a missed train is longer, it's very common for TfW to wait for GWR. Usually for Paddingtons, but I was held for a Portsmouth only last week.
That's interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
 
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