Consequences of minimum connection time with advances on through train

[MikeWM]

This is a situation I've been in a number of times, fortunately it hasn't gone wrong yet, but wondering what would (and what should) happen if it did.

Say there is a regular service A-B-C, station B has a minimum connection time of say 5 minutes, and I have an open ticket from A to B and an advance from B to C. I get on the specific service at A that is the train I'm reserved on from B to C. As long as the train runs, all is good.

But what happens if the train is cancelled? Is the 'minimal connection time' reduced to zero in this case? Otherwise I haven't left 'sufficient time' to 'interchange' at B to catch the service specified in the advance, so have I lost all rights to travel on a later service with the B-C advance?

And is the answer different if the train is only part-cancelled and actually runs as timetabled between B and C, but I couldn't get to B in time to catch it because it didn't run from A?

 

[wellhouse]

I had an experience not quite the same as this with LNER a few years ago.

I held two Advances Leeds Doncaster and Doncaster King's Cross, with a break in Doncaster. Following an incident my first train was seriously delayed such that I would miss my next booked train at Doncaster. However that train (the following service from Leeds) was cancelled owing to the incident, and I caught a service that had come from York instead.

When I claimed delay repay for both tickets, the first was paid, but LNER denied the second on the bizarre grounds that I had failed to present myself at Doncaster in time for the cancelled service.

Eventually I escalated my claim to the Managing Director's office, and it was finally paid.

 

[miklcct]

This is a situation I've been in a number of times, fortunately it hasn't gone wrong yet, but wondering what would (and what should) happen if it did.

Say there is a regular service A-B-C, station B has a minimum connection time of say 5 minutes, and I have an open ticket from A to B and an advance from B to C. I get on the specific service at A that is the train I'm reserved on from B to C. As long as the train runs, all is good.

But what happens if the train is cancelled? Is the 'minimal connection time' reduced to zero in this case? Otherwise I haven't left 'sufficient time' to 'interchange' at B to catch the service specified in the advance, so have I lost all rights to travel on a later service with the B-C advance?

And is the answer different if the train is only part-cancelled and actually runs as timetabled between B and C, but I couldn't get to B in time to catch it because it didn't run from A?

In this case you have right to take the next available service, because you are "using a combination of tickets" to make a journey which doesn't involve an interchange, and by "present yourself at good time at A", you are covered if the railway fails to run the A-C train using an advance ticket valid on that train.

 

[Watershed]

This is a situation I've been in a number of times, fortunately it hasn't gone wrong yet, but wondering what would (and what should) happen if it did.

Say there is a regular service A-B-C, station B has a minimum connection time of say 5 minutes, and I have an open ticket from A to B and an advance from B to C. I get on the specific service at A that is the train I'm reserved on from B to C. As long as the train runs, all is good.

But what happens if the train is cancelled? Is the 'minimal connection time' reduced to zero in this case? Otherwise I haven't left 'sufficient time' to 'interchange' at B to catch the service specified in the advance, so have I lost all rights to travel on a later service with the B-C advance?

And is the answer different if the train is only part-cancelled and actually runs as timetabled between B and C, but I couldn't get to B in time to catch it because it didn't run from A?

When you travel on split tickets, your rights are effectively no different to if you had bought a through ticket, with the exception that you must call at the station(s) where you change tickets.

You aren't changing at B just because you have split tickets there; even if you were changing at B, if your first train has been cancelled, it is not your fault that you haven't made it to B in time for your booked service.

Therefore, in the first scenario which you describe, the fact you have split makes no difference - your booked service has been cancelled, so you can travel on the next service(s) that call at your split point and comply with any other route or TOC restrictions your tickets have (e.g. "via [X]" or "AP [TOC] ONLY").

If taking the next such service(s) would be likely to cause you to be delayed by more than 60 minutes - e.g. you're restricted to a TOC that only runs a service every 2 hours - then under the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (EU 1371/2007), you are entitled to opt to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity. That could entail ticket acceptance, for example.

The answer is no different if the train is part-cancelled - you are making one journey from A to C, and the fact that the train ran as booked from B is no relevant to your journey.

 

[MikeWM]

When you travel on split tickets, your rights are effectively no different to if you had bought a through ticket, with the exception that you must call at the station(s) where you change tickets.

You aren't changing at B just because you have split tickets there; even if you were changing at B, if your first train has been cancelled, it is not your fault that you haven't made it to B in time for your booked service.

Well, yes - but if I'd taken an itinerary where I did need to change at B and given myself less than the station minimum time to interchange and then missed that interchange for whatever reason, then that *is* 'my fault', as least as far as the railway is concerned, and my advance ticket would be lost.

My question is whether that condition is overruled by the fact I was intending to be on a through train in the first place rather than actually changing at B, and whether that effectively reduces the 'minimum interchange time' at B to zero. Or not.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, yes - but if I'd taken an itinerary where I did need to change at B and given myself less than the station minimum time to interchange and then missed that interchange for whatever reason, then that *is* 'my fault', as least as far as the railway is concerned, and my advance ticket would be lost.

My question is whether that condition is overruled by the fact I was intending to be on a through train in the first place rather than actually changing at B, and whether that effectively reduces the 'minimum interchange time' at B to zero. Or not.

I think anyone arguing you need to leave the minimum connection time on a through itinerary is bonkers. Accredited sites will sell you the itinerary anyway which renders the argument effectively moot.

 

[MikeWM]

I think anyone arguing you need to leave the minimum connection time on a through itinerary is bonkers. Accredited sites will sell you the itinerary anyway which renders the argument effectively moot.

I'd agree, but especially in the situation where the service started short at B, I can easily foresee staff at station B saying 'well, the service ran as scheduled, you missed it, you should have left A early enough to give at least the minimum connection time here and then you'd have caught it'.

It may well be silly to say that, but *if* they were to do so, can I insist on travelling on a later train with my B-C advance or do I have to buy a new one?

 

[Watershed]

Well, yes - but if I'd taken an itinerary where I did need to change at B and given myself less than the station minimum time to interchange and then missed that interchange for whatever reason, then that *is* 'my fault', as least as far as the railway is concerned, and my advance ticket would be lost.

My question is whether that condition is overruled by the fact I was intending to be on a through train in the first place rather than actually changing at B, and whether that effectively reduces the 'minimum interchange time' at B to zero. Or not.

Yes, the difference here is that you weren't planning on changing. There's no need to allow the minimum connection time at a station just because you're splitting there; the MCT is only there for connections.

I'd agree, but especially in the situation where the service started short at B, I can easily foresee staff at station B saying 'well, the service ran as scheduled, you missed it, you should have left A early enough to give at least the minimum connection time here and then you'd have caught it'.

It may well be silly to say that, but *if* they were to do so, can I insist on travelling on a later train with my B-C ticket or do I have to buy a new one?

That clearly a nonsensical thing to say (though that's not to say it couldn't or doesn't happen sometimes). But, again, it is really no different to if you held a through ticket. It's no use telling people at Ely "well the train left Cambridge on time" if it was cancelled between Ely and Cambridge, and that applies whether you have split or not.

If you miss a connection as a result of something that within the railway's remit (e.g. a delayed or cancelled service), you can take a following service as described in my previous post. That goes whether you have split or not.

 

[MikeWM]

Well, good, I hoped that was the answer Hopefully I never need to try it out in real life.

 

[maniacmartin]

The minimum connection time is for changing trains, not changing tickets.

In fact with some ticket combinations etc the train doesn’t need to call anyway, so it would be impossible to observe a minimum connection time.

 

[zero]

Yes, the difference here is that you weren't planning on changing. There's no need to allow the minimum connection time at a station just because you're splitting there; the MCT is only there for connections.


That clearly a nonsensical thing to say (though that's not to say it couldn't or doesn't happen sometimes). But, again, it is really no different to if you held a through ticket. It's no use telling people at Ely "well the train left Cambridge on time" if it was cancelled between Ely and Cambridge, and that applies whether you have split or not.

If you miss a connection as a result of something that within the railway's remit (e.g. a delayed or cancelled service), you can take a following service as described in my previous post. That goes whether you have split or not.

What about Ormskirk to Blackpool South where the working timetable regards the service as a through train, but the passenger timetable regards them as separate trains with insufficient "connection" time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about Ormskirk to Blackpool South where the working timetable regards the service as a through train, but the passenger timetable regards them as separate trains with insufficient "connection" time?

It's a bit moot, really, because how exactly are you going to miss a connection that's actually a through train? If the train was cancelled throughout, you'd be due a full refund of both tickets, because both, invididually, were on cancelled trains. It'd only be an issue if the train was partly cancelled and was not advertised as a through train, or another unit was used to restart the second one on time and the original one terminated.

Trainsplit wouldn't issue it, though.

I think if you're concerned about awkward niches, a through Anytime (Day) Single or Return is the best ticket for you. Or just accept that overall you'll save a huge sum by splitting and might very, very occasionally lose and have to pay out for a new ticket or taxi/bus. Or as @yorkie said, only buy splits through e.g. Trainsplit, who will ensure this issue is handled correctly against the published timetable.

 

[yorkie]

What about Ormskirk to Blackpool South where the working timetable regards the service as a through train, but the passenger timetable regards them as separate trains with insufficient "connection" time?

It is the public timetable that counts.

If anyone has any concerns about split ticketing validity, the best thing to do is simply to book through an accredited retailer offering split tickets, book it as one journey and you then have evidence that it is one journey, evidence of the train times at the time you booked (which form the basis of the contract, even if those times later change), and all the relevant information to enable anyone checking the tickets to be under no doubt that the tickets are valid for the itinerary offered.

If you are delayed, it can make delay compensation claims much easier (I obtain e-tickets through Trainsplit where possible; if booked as a through journey I can simply upload the PDF containing all tickets to the delay repay form) and it can also help in the event that any train is re-timed, cancelled/deleted etc.

 

[Watershed]

What about Ormskirk to Blackpool South where the working timetable regards the service as a through train, but the passenger timetable regards them as separate trains with insufficient "connection" time?

They are still separate services in the WTT - they are simply diagrammed for one service to form the other. Note that the pattern also isn't the same every day of the week.

Now of course you may choose to 'chance it' based on the fact that one is booked to form the other, and it almost always works out that way.

But if you bought an Advance from Ormskirk to Preston, and an Advance from Preston to Blackpool South - but did not allow the minimum connection time between the two trains - then you would be SOL if the ex-Ormskirk service was delayed for some reason, they stepped up units to allow the Blackpool service to depart on time, and you therefore missed it.

 

[317 forever]

I have a slightly delicate split into 3 tickets for Stockport - High Wycombe for next Friday, as follows:

Northern depart Stockport 11.14 arrive Crewe 11.58
London North Western depart Crewe 12.51 arrive Birmingham New Street 13.51
Chiltern depart Birmingham Moor Street 14.55 arrive High Wycombe 16.12

I believe I am allowing more than minimum interchange times at both Crewe and Birmingham

I sincerely doubt I could have travelled from Stockport to High Wycombe much cheaper than £22 by any other combination.

 

[Watershed]

I have a slightly delicate split into 3 tickets for Stockport - High Wycombe for next Friday, as follows:

Northern depart Stockport 11.14 arrive Crewe 11.58
London North Western depart Crewe 12.51 arrive Birmingham New Street 13.51
Chiltern depart Birmingham Moor Street 14.55 arrive High Wycombe 16.12

I believe I am allowing more than minimum interchange times at both Crewe and Birmingham

I sincerely doubt I could have travelled from Stockport to High Wycombe much cheaper than £22 by any other combination.

That seems to be a very prudent itinerary, allowing you plenty of time in case of disruption.

 

[Hadders]

I have a slightly delicate split into 3 tickets for Stockport - High Wycombe for next Friday, as follows:

Northern depart Stockport 11.14 arrive Crewe 11.58
London North Western depart Crewe 12.51 arrive Birmingham New Street 13.51
Chiltern depart Birmingham Moor Street 14.55 arrive High Wycombe 16.12

I believe I am allowing more than minimum interchange times at both Crewe and Birmingham

I sincerely doubt I could have travelled from Stockport to High Wycombe much cheaper than £22 by any other combination.

I would not call a 53 minute connection at Crewe or a 64 minute connection between Birmingham New Street and Birmingham Moor Street delicate.
The minimum interchange time at Birmingham New Street is 12 minutes and the minimum interchange between New Street and Moor Street is 25 minutes.

 

[317 forever]

That seems to be a very prudent itinerary, allowing you plenty of time in case of disruption.

I would not call a 53 minute connection at Crewe or a 64 minute connection between Birmingham New Street and Birmingham Moor Street delicate.
The minimum interchange time at Birmingham New Street is 12 minutes and the minimum interchange between New Street and Moor Street is 25 minutes.

Thank you both.

My main concern has been if a train is cancelled, most notably the Northern one to Crewe. There are however other LNW trains from Crewe to Birmingham, probably via Stoke, if mine is cancelled.

 

[Hadders]

If a train is delayed or cancelled, and this causes you to miss a connection, you may take the next available train. You must follow the same routeing restrictions though.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you both.

My main concern has been if a train is cancelled, most notably the Northern one to Crewe. There are however other LNW trains from Crewe to Birmingham, probably via Stoke, if mine is cancelled.

If disruption caused you to miss a connection, you would be entitled to take the next service complying with your split point(s) and the route or TOC restrictions on your ticket(s).

If restricting yourself to such trains would be likely cause more than an hour's delay to your journey, you are entitled to be rerouted (free of charge) via the quickest available route. This would commonly be by means of ticket acceptance.

 

[yorkie]

I sincerely doubt I could have travelled from Stockport to High Wycombe much cheaper than £22 by any other combination.

Do you have a Railcard?

Depending on when you booked and what the availability of Advance fares was at the time, Trainsplit does find a cheaper option, though it works out higher once the share of saving is added in (£3.60 Stockport to Stoke; £6.00 Stoke to Birmingham and £11.00 Birmingham to Wolverhampton and this arriving at the same time but departing from Stockport later)

Thank you both.

My main concern has been if a train is cancelled, most notably the Northern one to Crewe. There are however other LNW trains from Crewe to Birmingham, probably via Stoke, if mine is cancelled.

As others have said, if you missed the connection you can take the next available train; it may be that you are restricted to trains operated by West Midlands Trains (branded LNR) for the Crewe to London leg, but it's worth enquiring with staff at Crewe.

 

[trover]

If disruption caused you to miss a connection, you would be entitled to take the next service complying with your split point(s) and the route or TOC restrictions on your ticket(s).

If restricting yourself to such trains would be likely cause more than an hour's delay to your journey, you are entitled to be rerouted (free of charge) via the quickest available route. This would commonly be by means of ticket acceptance.

If the hourly first leg is cancelled and the second leg is bihourly, which would results in an estimated 2 hours delay, I hold advance tickets covering the whole journey, but faster but more expensive route is available, who should I contact to initiate ticket acceptance, the ticket office or to tweet the TOC of the cancelled train?

 

[yorkie]

If the hourly first leg is cancelled and the second leg is bihourly, which would results in an estimated 2 hours delay, I hold advance tickets covering the whole journey, but faster but more expensive route is available, who should I contact to initiate ticket acceptance, the ticket office or to tweet the TOC of the cancelled train?

I would do both

 

[317 forever]

Do you have a Railcard?

Depending on when you booked and what the availability of Advance fares was at the time, Trainsplit does find a cheaper option, though it works out higher once the share of saving is added in (£3.60 Stockport to Stoke; £6.00 Stoke to Birmingham and £11.00 Birmingham to Wolverhampton and this arriving at the same time but departing from Stockport later)


As others have said, if you missed the connection you can take the next available train; it may be that you are restricted to trains operated by West Midlands Trains (branded LNR) for the Crewe to London leg, but it's worth enquiring with staff at Crewe.

I haven't got a Railcard.

I was prepared that £22 might not be the absolute minimum total fare to High Wycombe, but it is still one of the best and certainly a big saving as I could not see any through Advance fares.

I chose Crewe rather than Stoke as it is a larger station with more frequent London North Western services. Plus in case I use my local station at Heaton Chapel and pay the excess fare to Stockport, it would be 3 trains rather than 4.

 

[yorkie]

For anyone who is unsure of their rights and wants additional reassurance, rather than plan a really long itinerary that goes out of the way and calculate everything manually, my suggestion instead would be to simply buy from an accredited split ticket provider and follow the itinerary and seek staff advice if disruption occurs (and claim compensation accordingly).

 

[Watershed]

If the hourly first leg is cancelled and the second leg is bihourly, which would results in an estimated 2 hours delay, I hold advance tickets covering the whole journey, but faster but more expensive route is available, who should I contact to initiate ticket acceptance, the ticket office or to tweet the TOC of the cancelled train?

Both. If you're wrongly refused rerouting, you should buy the required tickets yourself and contact the relevant TOC(s) after your journey to claim back the cost. That would be in addition to delay compensation being payable based on the cost of your original ticket(s).

 

[trover]

Both. If you're wrongly refused rerouting, you should buy the required tickets yourself and contact the relevant TOC(s) after your journey to claim back the cost. That would be in addition to delay compensation being payable based on the cost of your original ticket(s).

One more issue is ticket offices usually give verbal advice, and very reluctant to print out new itinerary or write in the endorsement box. Just curious how do I explain to (any terms to refer to) on board ticket inspector under such circumstances.

 

[Watershed]

One more issue is ticket offices usually give verbal advice, and very reluctant to print out new itinerary or write in the endorsement box. Just curious how do I explain to (any terms to refer to) on board ticket inspector under such circumstances.

Discreetly recording the conversation may be an option (e.g. using a sound recording app on your phone). That way if anyone tries to claim the ticket office didn't say what they said, you can (judiciously) ask them whether they would like to listen to the evidence.

Obviously it's disappointing that something like this is necessary, but ultimately when £100s or even a criminal record are at stake, you can't be too careful.

 

[jrh2254]

For anyone who is unsure of their rights and wants additional reassurance, rather than plan a really long itinerary that goes out of the way and calculate everything manually, my suggestion instead would be to simply buy from an accredited split ticket provider and follow the itinerary and seek staff advice if disruption occurs (and claim compensation accordingly).

Agree and I think you only pay one admin fee on flexible tickets. However it still does not solve the problem of minimum connection times. eg. tutbury and hatton to preston where I want to go via crewe. The train gets into crewe at 3 minutes past the hour and the train from crewe goes at 9 mins past the hour. I have not found a search engine yet that provides an itinerary for a 6 minute wait , all I get is an itinerary for a 66 minute wait!

 

[Watershed]

Agree and I think you only pay one admin fee on flexible tickets. However it still does not solve the problem of minimum connection times. eg. tutbury and hatton to preston where I want to go via crewe. The train gets into crewe at 3 minutes past the hour and the train from crewe goes at 9 mins past the hour. I have not found a search engine yet that provides an itinerary for a 6 minute wait , all I get is an itinerary for a 66 minute wait!

You won't, because that's not an official connection. Accredited ticket selling sites aren't allowed to sell tickets on invalid itineraries.