Conservative MP calls for Welsh Assembly to be scrapped so people can visit beach

[Bletchleyite]

What would happen if you lived on a border town like hay which restrictions do you follow

The ones that apply to where you live.

That said, there are workarounds - park your car on the English side and "take exercise" to it

 

[Dai Corner]

Whichever country you live in. Nobody lives in both even if they have land that covers both.

No, it's whichever country you are in at the time. Cross the border while exercising or shopping for essentials and the rules you have to follow change.

 

[carlberry]

No, it's whichever country you are in at the time. Cross the border while exercising or shopping for essentials and the rules you have to follow change.

Yes; sorry it was a simplistic answer. As long as you can get to the other side without breaking the rules on the side you're on then the rules change. And clearly the English Police are not going to go around trying to stop cars registered in Wales to check if they had a legitimate reason to get to the border!

 

[Cowley]

Yes; sorry it was a simplistic answer. As long as you can get to the other side without breaking the rules on the side you're on then the rules change. And clearly the English Police are not going to go around trying to stop cars registered in Wales to check if they had a legitimate reason to get to the border!

It would be great if they did. I’ve got an image in my head of a police car with different lettering on each side, driving down the middle of the road and an officer from each force in the two front seats shouting different orders out...

 

[Dai Corner]

It would be great if they did. I’ve got an image in my head of a police car with different lettering on each side, driving down the middle of the road and an officer from each force in the two front seats shouting different orders out...

I'm wondering whether Welsh police will care about me driving into England, or returning in my 'CN' (Cardiff) registered car. What if I took my 'VU' (originally Worcester) one?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Generally, urban areas of Wales have high numbers of cases but the rural ones don't

I don't think it is that simple.
Can't speak for cases, but in terms of deaths, The Rhondda Cynon Taff and Gwent valley areas have much higher number than you what you would expect for areas that can be pretty rural in places and are certainly not "urban". Indeed higher per 100,000 people than Cardiff and Newport (essentially these areas respective cities).
Now this is probably partly explained by the geography of the areas (long chains of villages and towns that pretty much all run into each other), the nature of commuting down the valleys towards those respective cities and the level of deprivation you can find in those areas.
But it isn't as simple as what you suggest - and as well as those areas having higher rates than that cities near them, they also seem to have higher rates than the parts of England that are closest. So based on that, having stricter rules in Wales sounds sensible at the moment.

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't think it is that simple.
Can't speak for cases, but in terms of deaths, The Rhondda Cynon Taff and Gwent valley areas have much higher number than you what you would expect for areas that can be pretty rural in places and are certainly not "urban". Indeed higher per 100,000 people than Cardiff and Newport (essentially these areas respective cities).
Now this is probably partly explained by the geography of the areas (long chains of villages and towns that pretty much all run into each other), the nature of commuting down the valleys towards those respective cities and the level of deprivation you can find in those areas.
But it isn't as simple as what you suggest - and as well as those areas having higher rates than that cities near them, they also seem to have higher rates than the parts of England that are closest. So based on that, having stricter rules in Wales sounds sensible at the moment.

I was counting 'long chains of villages and towns that pretty much all run in to each other' as urban rather than rural. Is there a different term for them?

But my main point was that political borders aren't a sensible way of deciding what lockdown restrictions should apply. We now have anomalies like different rules applying each side of Boundary Lane in Flintshire/Cheshire but the same ones applying in badly affected Pontypridd and barely affected Haverfordwest.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was counting 'long chains of villages and towns that pretty much all run in to each other' as urban rather than rural. Is there a different term for them?

But my main point was that political borders aren't a sensible way of deciding what lockdown restrictions should apply. We now have anomalies like different rules applying each side of Boundary Lane in Flintshire/Cheshire but the same ones applying in badly affected Pontypridd and barely affected Haverfordwest.

I certainly wouldn't call the valleys urban - especially when compared to Cardiff, Newport and English cities like Bristol and Birmingham etc.

And you could easily make the same point about the same rules being applied in different parts of England that are differently affected, so I am not sure about why Wales and the Welsh Government are getting the boot here. If you want to make a point about policy needing to be decided on a very local level - then surely the argument is for local councils to decide? And even then you'd still end up with somewhat arbitrary "borders". I don't see how you can get away from that tbh!

 

[175001]

He's got connections with far right groups across Europe. Ignore.

 

[Dai Corner]

I certainly wouldn't call the valleys urban - especially when compared to Cardiff and Newport!

And you could easily make the same point about the same rules being applied in different parts of England that are differently affected, so I am not sure about why Wales and the Welsh Government are getting the boot here. If you want to make a point about policy needing to be decided on a very local level - then surely the argument is for local councils to decide? And even then you'd still end up with somewhat arbitrary "borders". I don't see how you can get away from that tbh!

The ONS have defined the 'Newport Built-up Area'

Newport built-up area - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Newport Built-up area (previously known in official statistics as the Newport Urban Area) is an area of land defined by the United Kingdom Office for National Statistics (ONS) for population monitoring purposes. It is an urban conurbation and is not coterminous with the city boundaries. It consists of the urban area centred on Newport as well as contiguous settlements in the eastern and western valleys extending north of the city – including Cwmbran, Pontypool, Risca, Abercarn and Blackwood. It does however exclude physically detached urban areas within the city boundaries, such as Marshfield.

I think the four Governments should decide together on a set of lockdown levels based on relevant data such as population density and infection and immunity rates (once we can measure those with reasonable certainty through more extensive testing). Something like the PM described on Sunday.

Those should then be applied regionally as appropriate. For example in Wales a Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion region could have a lower level than a 'cities and valleys' region.

Coming out of the lockdown is going to be much more complicated than it was going in. I don't think there's any easy answer that satisfies everyone.

 

[MarkyT]

He's got connections with far right groups across Europe. Ignore.

Agreed, he seems a nasty piece of work. Extreme Brexiteer who nevertheless wishes to impose more centralised Westminster power over Wales. Presumably thick enough to believe the public can't see the inconsistency, or deliberately doing it mainly to anger people, a common tactic of his ilk.

 

[MarkyT]

I certainly wouldn't call the valleys urban - especially when compared to Cardiff, Newport and English cities like Bristol and Birmingham etc.

And you could easily make the same point about the same rules being applied in different parts of England that are differently affected, so I am not sure about why Wales and the Welsh Government are getting the boot here. If you want to make a point about policy needing to be decided on a very local level - then surely the argument is for local councils to decide? And even then you'd still end up with somewhat arbitrary "borders". I don't see how you can get away from that tbh!

They are quite dense near-continuous linear settlements along the valley floors, along which most movement takes place unsurprisingly, which quickly become very rural as you go further up the valley sides into the hills. Not unlike Alpine settlement patterns and notably the area in northern Italy in which the disease took off so spectacularly.

 

[Llanigraham]

Equally, the First Ministers like to do things differently to show that they can. There are probably grounds for different rules in different geographical areas but it should be based on science and medicine not politics.

Which is exactly what has happened, especially as the English advisors are saying that they recommended NOT to lift the lock-down in England but were ignored.

To be fair, if you look at the official Government stats page Wales has much higher cases than England does, so that is grounds for a stricter approach. But I think the thing about not going to Snowdon is politically motivated based on the strong farmer lobby who are enjoying not having the tourists around.

Sorry but that last statement is totally wrong! This had nothing to do with the farming lobby, but the concern stated by the Health professionals in many parts of rural Wales stating that they do not have the facilities to support a large and sudden influx of "foreign" population.

 

[Mag_seven]

the English advisors are saying that they recommended NOT to lift the lock-down in England but were ignored.

Can you source this claim please?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you source this claim please?

I know one of them and if I recall rightly he wanted some restrictions on driving distance to exercise to prevent honeypotting (i.e. all of London being split between the Lakes, Peak and Cornwall next weekend, which is so going to happen), perhaps like what the French did with their 100km limit, but was otherwise I think OK with what was said. He's being surprisingly open about it on his FB.

In any case the lockdown was not lifted, the changes were actually relatively minor in effect but significant in terms of mental health and the economy. If there isn't a considerable increase in infections in about a week's time (other than a possible spike for Friday's street parties) then it was quite possibly a masterstroke.

 

[Dai Corner]

Sorry but that last statement is totally wrong! This had nothing to do with the farming lobby, but the concern stated by the Health professionals in many parts of rural Wales stating that they do not have the facilities to support a large and sudden influx of "foreign" population.

I thought they'd built a large temporary hospital at Llandudno and that serious cases in mid Wales have been going to Shrewsbury since the birth of the NHS (probably before)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought they'd built a large temporary hospital at Llandudno and that serious cases in mid Wales have been going to Shrewsbury since the birth of the NHS (probably before)?

And isn't Bangor (which serves Snowdonia) a fairly large urban(ish) hospital?

 

[Llanigraham]

I thought they'd built a large temporary hospital at Llandudno and that serious cases in mid Wales have been going to Shrewsbury since the birth of the NHS (probably before)?

Don't know about North Wales, but here in Mid Wales in normal times we can be transported to hospitals in Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth, Abergavenny, Newport, Bangor or Shrewsbury. It depends on what is wrong with you and where you are. For example 2 of my neighbours are currently receiving treatment at Bangor and Swansea; two totally different directions.

 

[Llanigraham]

And isn't Bangor (which serves Snowdonia) a fairly large urban(ish) hospital?

No, according to NHS Wales Bangor is a District General Hospital.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, according to NHS Wales Bangor is a District General Hospital.

I'm not sure that that dictates its size?

 

[Dai Corner]

Don't know about North Wales, but here in Mid Wales in normal times we can be transported to hospitals in Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth, Abergavenny, Newport, Bangor or Shrewsbury. It depends on what is wrong with you and where you are. For example 2 of my neighbours are currently receiving treatment at Bangor and Swansea; two totally different directions.

So any of the 'large and sudden influx of "foreign" population' who became ill would actually be treated outside mid Wales?

 

[delt1c]

Equally, the First Ministers like to do things differently to show that they can. There are probably grounds for different rules in different geographical areas but it should be based on science and medicine not politics.

Agree that actions should be based on science and medicine and not politics. However who is to say the 1st ministers are not adhering to that philosophy? Don’t believe that 1st ministers are being different just to show that they can. It is highly probable they are acting on advice from experts relating to their devolved areas and with the welfare of the public their top concern. As said different areas have different issues.

 

[Dai Corner]

Agree that actions should be based on science and medicine and not politics. However who is to say the 1st ministers are not adhering to that philosophy? Don’t believe that 1st ministers are being different just to show that they can. It is highly probable they are acting on advice from experts relating to their devolved areas and with the welfare of the public their top concern. As said different areas have different issues.

Do you live in a devolved nation?

For example, garden centres in Wales could open on Monday but those in England had to wait until Wednesday.

PPE for Wales flown in to Cardiff airport instead of combining the order with England, probably getting a better price and saving transport costs.

Face coverings advised in shops and on public transport in England but not in Wales.

 

[johnnychips]

I should think that it’s quite as difficult to get scientists to agree with each other as it is politicians!

 

[Llanigraham]

So any of the 'large and sudden influx of "foreign" population' who became ill would actually be treated outside mid Wales?

No., I suggest you look at the list again.
The first place they are going to have to get treatment is in the local Health Centre, and the Managers of those have already complained about the recent and sudden increase in temporary patients trying to register; patients that they do not get funding for, do not have the records for, and do not have the facilities to deal with them.
Note the large unsupported bit in the middle of this map of major Regional hospitals in Wales

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm not sure that that dictates its size?

See the map above!

 

[WelshBluebird]

They are quite dense near-continuous linear settlements along the valley floors, along which most movement takes place unsurprisingly, which quickly become very rural as you go further up the valley sides into the hills. Not unlike Alpine settlement patterns and notably the area in northern Italy in which the disease took off so spectacularly.

I grew up there hence why I suggested the geography may well have an impact.
I still wouldn't call the village I grew up in urban though, nor would the majority of the people who live there.
Interesting comparison to Italy though, I hadn't made that link myself!

 

[Dai Corner]

No., I suggest you look at the list again.
The first place they are going to have to get treatment is in the local Health Centre, and the Managers of those have already complained about the recent and sudden increase in temporary patients trying to register; patients that they do not get funding for, do not have the records for, and do not have the facilities to deal with them.
Note the large unsupported bit in the middle of this map of major Regional hospitals in Wales
View attachment 77900

I thought you were talking about hospital treatment. As the map shows, the likelihood is that someone taken ill in mid Wales would be treated in a hospital outside that region.

Here's the form filled in when a GP provides services to a patient not permanently registered to them. Note the words 'I claim the appropriate payment '

GPs really ought to have access to patient records online these days, but if not there's time between making an appointment and seeing the patient for admin staff to obtain them from the patient's own GP.

GPs seeing a lot of tourists will presumably size their operations accordingly.

https://www.gowerplacepractice.nhs.uk/regforms/GMS3.pdf

 

[Llanigraham]

I thought you were talking about hospital treatment. As the map shows, the likelihood is that someone taken ill in mid Wales would be treated in a hospital outside that region.

Here's the form filled in when a GP provides services to a patient not permanently registered to them. Note the words 'I claim the appropriate payment '

https://www.gowerplacepractice.nhs.uk/regforms/GMS3.pdf

I suggest you go and talk to a Practice Manager and ask them how long it takes for them to get paid from England!

 

[37424]

A trip around the moors of my local Pennine area looking for potential exercise walks, I found that most of the car parks and layby's were still closed off with cones and concrete blocks in some cases. Perhaps the MP should concern himself more with that than what's going on in Wales.