Contactless out to Reading and Gatwick Airport

[London Trains]

With Contactless being available out to Reading and Gatwick, would travelling from Reading to Gatwick on the North Downs line, or travelling from Reading to Waterloo with SWR be valid?

Whether they are or not, couldn't someone use the argument that they entered at a station accepting Contactless and exited at a station accepting Contactless, so the fare should be valid.

This is similar to the Epsom problem that used to exist until Epsom was added to the London Zones last year, but does not involve changing trains and TOCs like that did so there is a much stronger case.

If these journeys are valid then it creates an awkward situation that you can travel on a line as far out as the North Downs Line with Contactless, but cant use Contactless from stations so much closer to London such as the Shepperton line, Esher, Cobham etc (it is ridiculous these arent included anyway).

 

[swt_passenger]

With Contactless being available out to Reading and Gatwick, would travelling from Reading to Gatwick on the North Downs line, or travelling from Reading to Waterloo with SWR be valid?

Whether they are or not, couldn't someone use the argument that they entered at a station accepting Contactless and exited at a station accepting Contactless, so the fare should be valid.

This is similar to the Epsom problem that used to exist until Epsom was added to the London Zones last year, but does not involve changing trains and TOCs like that did so there is a much stronger case.

If these journeys are valid then it creates an awkward situation that you can travel on a line as far out as the North Downs Line with Contactless, but cant use Contactless from stations so much closer to London such as the Shepperton line, Esher, Cobham etc (it is ridiculous these arent included anyway).

I’d say they are definitely not valid because the appropriate connecting routes aren’t shown in the “zones” on the Oyster and Contactless fares map, but of course you‘re always welcome to try it and see how you get on...

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If I have read BRFares.com correctly, then an off-peak day single routed as any permitted is £35.50, and allows travel via London. An off-peak day single routed via Gomshall (i.e via the North Downs line) is £26.80. So even if you are allowed to use your Contactless card without challenge, I think you'll have paid an £8.70 surcharge for the privilege.

(edited to strike out rubbish - please see gnolife's post immediately below)

 

[gnolife]

If I have read BRFares.com correctly, then an off-peak day single routed as any permitted is £35.50, and allows travel via London. An off-peak day single routed via Gomshall (i.e via the North Downs line) is £26.80. So even if you are allowed to use your Contactless card without challenge, I think you'll have paid an £8.70 surcharge for the privilege.

The off peak contactless fare for Reading to Gatwick is 17.80, so a relatively decent sabing over the via Gomshall fare for a one way journey

 

[matt_world2004]

TfL Rail to operate services to Reading from 15 December
26 September 2019
New service is the next step in the delivery of the Elizabeth line
"Customers will see staff at every station, and improvements being made to stations along the route including the installation of lifts to provide step-free access, they will also be able to enjoy the convenience of pay as you go contactless payments all the way to Reading "
Howard Smith
, Operations Director, TfL Rail

• Pay as you go using contactless to be accepted between Paddington mainline and Reading from January 2020
• Work to make stations more accessible to customers well underway with Iver, Langley and Taplow stations all to become step-free by March 2020

From Sunday 15 December Transport for London (TfL) will start running the stopping services between Paddington mainline and Reading ahead of the service becoming part of the Elizabeth line.
These services (currently operated by GWR) will be operated as TfL Rail, which will become the Elizabeth line when the line opens through central London, transforming travel with quicker, easier and more accessible journeys for customers.
Under TfL Rail, the current service frequency of four stopping trains an hour in the peak between Paddington mainline and Reading will be maintained using the new Elizabeth line trains. Two trains an hour will run during the off-peak, as is currently the case. The service replaces part of the Great Western inner suburban route, some fast services will continue to be operated by GWR from Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough to Paddington.
TfL zones do not apply to stations beyond West Drayton, but for the first time, customers will be able to use pay as you go with contactless across the route all the way from Paddington mainline to Reading. To ensure that it is introduced smoothly to customers, contactless ticketing will come into effect in line with the annual fares revision on 2 January 2020. Between 15 December 2019 and 2 January 2020, existing ticketing arrangements will apply and TfL Rail fares will remain at the same price as the current GWR fares. However, in line with TfL's wider policies, children under 11 who are accompanied by an adult, as well as customers who are eligible for the Freedom Pass, will be able to travel for free to Reading on the new TfL service.
Once introduced, adult pay as you go fares to/from stations between Iver and Reading are anticipated to be cheaper or in line with standard single and return fares along the line. All fares will be set in line with Department for Transport policy and confirmed nearer the time.
Pay as you go with Oyster will not be extended to services beyond West Drayton, due to limitations with the system, which is now more than 15 years old. Millions of journeys in and around London are already being made using contactless every day; with 60 per cent of rail pay as you go journeys made using contactless.
Station improvement work is being delivered by TfL and Network Rail at all stations between Paddington mainline and Reading including lifts providing step-free access, new station entrances, improved customer information systems, signage and waiting rooms. At Langley and Taplow stations, new passenger bridges across the tracks have been put in place, and, at Iver, all three lift shafts have now been installed, with the station on course to become step-free by March 2020.In the build up to taking over services platform lengths have also been extended along the line to cater for the new trains that will serve the line.
Howard Smith, Operations Director for TfL Rail, said:
'Starting TfL Rail services to Reading is another step towards opening London's new railway, the Elizabeth line. Customers will see staff at every station, and improvements being made to stations along the route including the installation of lifts to provide step-free access, they will also be able to enjoy the convenience of pay as you go contactless payments all the way to Reading.'
Network Rail will be undertaking some Christmas engineering work between Tuesday 24 December and Friday 27 December, a reduced service will run on the Tuesday and Friday with replacement buses between Slough and Hillingdon. There will be no service on the entire line on Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
Notes to editors:
TfL Rail stopping pattern December 2019:

• During the peak, four trains per hour will run between Paddington mainline and Reading. Trains will call at all stations between Reading and Hayes & Harlington, Southall, Ealing Broadway and Paddington.
• During the off-peak, two trains per hour will run between Paddington mainline and Reading. Trains will call at all stations between Reading and Hayes & Harlington, Southall, Ealing Broadway and Paddington.
• Services from Reading will not call at West Ealing, Hanwell and Acton Main Line.
• TfL expects that GWR will also offer pay as you go with contactless on their services from 2 January 2020.
• Since contactless payments on Tube and rail services in London launched in September 2014, TfL has seen contactless cards from more than 130 countries from around the world used on the system.
• Customers who are eligible for the Freedom Pass will be able to use this travel on TfL Rail services. Customers who are over 60 will also be able to benefit from a Senior Railcard, which costs just £30 and saves customers 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.
• Pay as you go journeys between Paddington mainline and West Drayton have been set at the TfL zonal rate since it was introduced in September 2008.

Current single cash fares from Reading to:

	Off-Peak	Peak
Twyford	£3.90	£4.40
Maidenhead	£6.70	£7.30
Taplow	£7.20	£8.30
Burnham	£8.30	£9.00
Slough	£9.40	£9.60
Langley	£10.90	£11.90
Iver	£11.40	£13.80
West Drayton*	£12.40	£14.20
Hayes & Harlington*	£13.70	£14.90
Southall*	£13.70	£16.10
Hanwell*	£15.30	£17.50
West Ealing*	£15.70	£18.10
Ealing Broadway*	£16.70	£18.40
Acton Main Line*	£16.70	£18.70
Paddington mainline*	£20.60	£25.10

Twyford

Maidenhead

Taplow

Burnham

Slough

Langley

Iver

West Drayton*

Hayes & Harlington*

Southall*

Hanwell*

West Ealing*

Ealing Broadway*

Acton Main Line*

Paddington mainline*

* Pay as you go already available and available separately see fares at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder

• Pay as you go will not be valid on South Western services between London Waterloo and Reading via Virginia Water
• Testing continues to enable TfL to introduce the new Elizabeth line trains on services to Heathrow airport.
• The new railway, jointly sponsored by the Department for Transport (DfT) and TfL with support from London's business community, will connect stations such as Paddington Elizabeth line station to Canary Wharf in only 17 minutes, transforming how Londoners and visitors move across the capital.

Contactless is not valid on South west trains services via Virginia water

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The off peak contactless fare for Reading to Gatwick is 17.80, so a relatively decent sabing over the via Gomshall fare for a one way journey

Ah. Clearly I didn't read BRFares.com correctly - apologies for misleading.

 

[JonathanH]

Whether they are or not, couldn't someone use the argument that they entered at a station accepting Contactless and exited at a station accepting Contactless, so the fare should be valid.

No you can't. It is not valid on the route via Gomshall.

You will be treated as not having a valid ticket if you present a credit card when travelling on the route. There is no argument you can present that makes it valid.

Under your argument how does anyone know you are going all the way to Gatwick (or at least Redhill) if you touch in at Reading and board a North Downs Line train?

 

[London Trains]

No you can't. It is not valid on the route via Gomshall.

You will be treated as not having a valid ticket if you present a credit card when travelling on the route. There is no argument you can present that makes it valid.

Under your argument how does anyone know you are going all the way to Gatwick (or at least Redhill) if you touch in at Reading and board a North Downs Line train?

You are correct, but a regular passenger with a vague understanding of fares (one who would not be reading this forum) may see both Reading and Gatwick on the TfL rail and tube map and not even take any notice as to whether the line is shown. This itself is an argument for a regular passenger.

I suspect if someone was penalty fared and then CCTV showed the person exiting at a station Contactless is valid at, they could appeal against GWR and would be reasonably likely to win in court, as unlike the explicit fact Contactless is not valid on SWR via Virginia Water (as seen above), TfL have not explicitly stated in writing that this journey is invalid.

 

[matt_world2004]

You are correct, but a regular passenger with a vague understanding of fares (one who would not be reading this forum) may see both Reading and Gatwick on the TfL rail and tube map and not even take any notice as to whether the line is shown. This itself is an argument for a regular passenger.

I suspect if someone was penalty fared and then CCTV showed the person exiting at a station Contactless is valid at, they could appeal against GWR and would be reasonably likely to win in court, as unlike the explicit fact Contactless is not valid on SWR via Virginia Water (as seen above), TfL have not explicitly stated in writing that this journey is invalid.

Wouldn't it be considered in the same way as doughnutting in that the fare is valid for both ends of the journey but not the middle and no different than using an outer zonal travelcard via zone 1

 

[JonathanH]

You are correct, but a regular passenger with a vague understanding of fares (one who would not be reading this forum) may see both Reading and Gatwick on the TfL rail and tube map and not even take any notice as to whether the line is shown. This itself is an argument for a regular passenger.

...and they will be treated exactly the same as someone who turns up at a station outside the Contactless area thinking it is valid to all destinations - this happens multiple times a day all across the South East. Just because two places are within a fare system does not justify travelling via a completely different route which is not.

I suspect if someone was penalty fared and then CCTV showed the person exiting at a station Contactless is valid at, they could appeal against GWR and would be reasonably likely to win in court, as unlike the explicit fact Contactless is not valid on SWR via Virginia Water (as seen above), TfL have not explicitly stated in writing that this journey is invalid.

Is it really TfL's role to say that their fare structure doesn't apply on a route entirely outside London. GWR are quite clear in saying where Oyster and Contactless are valid on their routes.

Contactless and Oyster pay as you go | Great Western Railway

TfL Rail is now accepting Contactless pay as you go on its local stopping services from London Paddington to Reading.

www.gwr.com

Contactless pay as you go can now be used on both GWR and TfL Rail services between Reading and London Paddington.

There is a bit on that page about it not being valid on the branches. There is a bit on there about it not being valid from Reading to Feltham. Do they really need to spell out that it isn't valid on other bits of their network?

In passing, I note that there is probably nowhere where validity of Oyster and Contactless on GWR services between Gatwick and Redhill is confirmed.

 

[alistairlees]

You are correct, but a regular passenger with a vague understanding of fares (one who would not be reading this forum) may see both Reading and Gatwick on the TfL rail and tube map and not even take any notice as to whether the line is shown. This itself is an argument for a regular passenger.

It is the customer's responsibility to check surely. You could equally argue that Colchester and Cambridge are within the Network Railcard area, so a journey between the two via Ipswich, with a Network Railcard discounted ticket, ought to be valid. It isn't, because it goes outside the valid area. Same here.

 

[30907]

...a regular passenger with a vague understanding of fares (one who would not be reading this forum) may see both Reading and Gatwick on the TfL rail and tube map and not even take any notice as to whether the line is shown.

They might notice that it would be pretty much impossible to trace a route from Reading to Gatwick on said map, let alone a direct one.

 

[MotCO]

Do they really need to spell out that it isn't valid on other bits of their network?

They shouldn't neeed to spell it out, but what's the betting that in 6 months' time, there will be poster on here bemoaning the fact that thet have been accused of not having a vald ticket when traveling between Reading and Gatwick on an Oyster and seeking our advice?

 

[MikeWh]

There is a bit on there about it not being valid from Reading to Feltham.

Which automatically says it's not valid on the North Downs line until that diverges at Wokingham.

In passing, I note that there is probably nowhere where validity of Oyster and Contactless on GWR services between Gatwick and Redhill is confirmed.

The London Oyster Map https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/images/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.gif shows the line.

 

[30907]

Which automatically says it's not valid on the North Downs line until that diverges at Wokingham.

Though the hypothetical traveller could be excused for not knowing that the two routes share common trackage

 

[philthetube]

Wouldn't it be considered in the same way as doughnutting in that the fare is valid for both ends of the journey but not the middle and no different than using an outer zonal travelcard via zone 1

Not at all the same, you cannot doughnut using contactless

The op stated contactless and not oyster

 

[JonathanH]

Not at all the same, you cannot doughnut using contactless

The op stated contactless and not oyster

Technically you could if there were two platform-mounted readers on your route - eg something like Imperial Wharf to Clapham Junction and Redhill to Gatwick Airport and not be touched in for the bit between Clapham Junction and Redhill.

 

[MikeWh]

Not at all the same, you cannot doughnut using contactless

The op stated contactless and not oyster

Well what would you call using a fare that is valid on entry at Reading and on exit at Gatwick but not valid between Reading and Redhill on the direct trains?

 

[London Trains]

Which automatically says it's not valid on the North Downs line until that diverges at Wokingham.

No it doesnt, it states not valid on SWR services between Reading and Feltham. Nowhere does it state it's not valid on the North Downs line. Also many passengers would have no clue these services run on the same line!

 

[philthetube]

Well what would you call using a fare that is valid on entry at Reading and on exit at Gatwick but not valid between Reading and Redhill on the direct trains?

possibly my interpretation but I would say that doughnutting is deliberate where this could very easily be accidental.

However I concede the point to you, it fits the description.

 

[JonathanH]

No it doesnt, it states not valid on SWR services between Reading and Feltham. Nowhere does it state it's not valid on the North Downs line. Also many passengers would have no clue these services run on the same line!

If you are really concerned about this, why don't you write to GWR and suggest that they clarify the position on their website.

There is absolutely no way of reaching the conclusion that a Contactless card is valid for travel at any point on a GWR train between Reading and Redhill or intended to be.