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Contactless Payments On Board Buses

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tbtc

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A recent thread saw a lot of criticism for Lothian Buses because their vehicles don't yet allow contactless payments to be made by bank cards.

Whilst it's obviously desirable technology, it felt a little unfair since the vast majority of buses elsewhere in the UK don't yet provide that facility, as far as I was aware.

Then I read elsewhere that Stagecoach's buses in Yorkshire are to be upgraded shortly - the website (https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and-offers/national/contactless) shows that this is already "the norm" in Oxford, Manchester, "North East" and "South East".

First have started offering it in Bristol, with other areas over the next two years (https://www.firstgroup.com/about-us/news/first-bus-contactless-commitment-customers).

Arriva certainly have contactless in the north east of England (https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/north-east/bus-tickets/contactless-payment/).

So, how many other areas currently have this? Where is the biggest gap without it?
 
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radamfi

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More interestingly, where can you use contactless as the actual ticket (like London), rather than merely using it instead of coins to buy a paper ticket from the driver?

In this press release from First, they announced that contactless payment would be accepted across England "from late 2012". Like London, no paper ticket issued.

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2011/03-09-2011-ukbus.aspx

FirstGroup, the UK’s largest bus and rail operator, today revealed it is to invest £27m in revolutionary new ticketing technology for its 5,000 strong bus fleet in England, outside London.

The company intends to be the first bus operator outside London to offer customers ‘touch in touch out’ contactless payment. The new ticket machines, designed to read contactless debit or credit cards, in addition to ITSO smartcards such as concessionary bus passes, will be introduced to buses from the autumn and will initially allow customers with an ITSO smartcard to touch in. Contactless bank cards will be accepted across England from late 2012.

First’s new ticketing system will act much like London’s Oyster Card; customers will simply ‘touch in’ and ‘touch out’ using their debit or credit card, taking less than a second, and avoiding the need to carry the correct change. The system will also allow FirstGroup to offer a range of tickets including capping the daily fare. But unlike Oyster customers won’t need to carry an additional card or worry about pre-payment or topping up. Customers using the contactless cards will simply see the cost of the fare deducted from their bank or credit card balance.
 

jon0844

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The system TfL uses is quite complex, so I'd be fine with local bus routes just allowing CPCs as a means of paying for individual tickets (issued on paper) instead of cash.

I have no doubt it would make a real difference to bus patronage as I can't take a bus if I'm not carrying enough money (rarely do, as I use cards or my phone for just about everything). I am sure people who believe they need exact money, as is the case on some operators (not all issuing change vouchers) are also put off.

London shows how good getting rid of cash acceptance altogether can be, and we wouldn't quite get that (as you'd still need to ask for a ticket) but it's a step in the right direction.

Letting you use an app on your NFC enabled phone would also make perfect sense. What I have now is a system that shows a barcode and only lets me have one active ticket at a time, so I can't pay for my wife or son to travel and they must either get the app and buy their own batch of tickets or carry cash.

If I'm not on my own, we rarely take buses as a family because of this.
 

[.n]

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More interestingly, where can you use contactless as the actual ticket (like London), rather than merely using it instead of coins to buy a paper ticket from the driver?

In this press release from First, they announced that contactless payment would be accepted across England "from late 2012". Like London, no paper ticket issued.

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2011/03-09-2011-ukbus.aspx

Well that's never going to happen judging by their poorly implemented mobile ticket app - where I am it doesn't even sell tickets for their flagship routes, as the depot manager doesn't think they're needed!! (not to mention the stupidity of the app not even opening when there is no 3G/Wi-FI signal - thus preventing its use in a lot of places)
 

cf111

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There's no need for an app on a NFC phone, you can use it as a credit/debit card via Apple or Android Pay.

If your bank supports it, sadly mine doesn't.

I used Stagecoach's app to buy a weekly ticket recently and was quite impressed even if some of the drivers were unsure of it!
 

James H

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Yellow Buses in Bournemouth has a fairly decent app which uses Apple Pay as part of the app, rather than in conjunction with the on-board ticket machine.
 

Blindtraveler

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I hope TBTC will appologise to anyone he may have upset in the afformentioned thread, we badly need contactless in Edinburgh as I would say 1 in 3 tourists asks about card payment and/or needing change.

The apps most bus companys use for mobile tickets are hopeless with there spend limmits and the miriad of other issues as John outlines above.

I dont think any Scottish opperater takes contactless at present but its coming in the not to distant to stagecoach so all good there.
 

Harpers Tate

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I think the main criticism arises when both of the following are true:
1: Exact fare, no change given (for cash) AND
2: No contactless.
 

PeterC

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so I can't pay for my wife or son to travel and they must either get the app and buy their own batch of tickets or carry cash.
In London of course you would all need your own cards which seems to be far less of an issue with passengers when they did away with cash fares than I expected. (Assuming that your son isn't young enough to travel free when accompanied)

The exact fare requirement has never bothered me over much of itself. What is off putting is not even knowing that the exact fare is needed, let alone how much it will be, until you board the bus.
 

jon0844

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There's no need for an app on a NFC phone, you can use it as a credit/debit card via Apple or Android Pay.
I know if using Android Pay etc, but I meant for M-tickets where you store an actual ticket and can pay by multiple methods (manual card entry, PayPal, Android Pay etc).
 

paddington

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I think the main criticism arises when both of the following are true:
1: Exact fare, no change given (for cash) AND
2: No contactless.

The exact fare requirement has never bothered me over much of itself. What is off putting is not even knowing that the exact fare is needed, let alone how much it will be, until you board the bus.

+1

I guess bus companies around the world just don't really care about visitors using their services.

Yes, the main problem with most buses in the UK is that it's impossible to know the fare if you have never taken the bus before, or not taken it in the past few years as it will probably not have gone up.

I prefer to have as many options to pay as possible, therefore I am in favour of retaining the possibility for cash payments as well as allowing contactless and/or "app" payments.

Personally, I am wary of allowing multiple companies more or less carte blanche to charge my cards whatever they like, so I would prefer a system where tickets are purchased from a driver using contactless, or an app (but I don't want to have hundreds of bus apps on my phone, given the number of bus companies I use around the world - so I would only install an app for a local bus company).

I prefer to use cash when I don't have a bank account in the local currency.

The most user-friendly bus system I have ever used are various buses in Japan. Of course, Japan is a *very* heavily cash-based country. If you have never been to Japan, then I will just say that I consider the UK to still be a heavily cash-based country.

Firstly, the fares are well-advertised everywhere, at bus stops, on the buses and online.

Both cash and smartcard payments are accepted. It is easy to top up the smartcard everywhere (though not necessarily online but there is no need to).

The buses all have machines to accept your fare if paying by cash so the driver doesn't need to handle any of it. If you don't have a card or the right coins, there are machines on the bus where you can insert notes and get a mixture of coins in change in order to pay the correct amount.

Lastly, the drivers are all extremely polite and (although it gets annoying if you aren't used to it) they basically announce everything down to "I am turning left please hold on" "I am about to brake please be careful"

The least friendly bus system I have used is in Stavanger in Norway. If you are a local it is probably fine. When arriving at the airport, there is no information at all about the local bus service although it is available online (in Norwegian). The local bus from the airport used to go to the city centre but it was too popular with visitors so they decided to curtail it to a nearby suburban centre to force you onto the expensive airport bus (about £18).

You can still take the local bus followed by a train. Interestingly enough the train passes through lots of rural stations where tickets cannot be bought until on board, mainly with cash (because cards won't work until a mobile signal is reached). The bus fare is about £3 but the only way to buy it at the airport is to use the app. At least there is free wifi there, but if boarding elsewhere then I am not going to use roaming on my phone.

In another spite to visitors, there is a (newly introduced at the time I went) surcharge of about £2 if using cash, which should not really be charged because there is no ticket machine at the airport, but of course despite being told on travel forums that "everyone in Norway speaks English", this is not true at all, so arguing with the bus driver doesn't work. Furthermore, the amount of the cash fare is just above a single note, and the driver probably has no change, thus someone unprepared will have to pay about £10 rather than £5 (and might as well just take the expensive airport bus!). Knowing that train ticket machines probably only take coins, I did come prepared with lots of coins though.

Lastly, at the bus station in the large suburban centre, which serves about 30 routes, there are exactly 2 ticket machines which are hidden away (and are card only).
 

Bletchleyite

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The most user-friendly bus system I have ever used are various buses in Japan. Of course, Japan is a *very* heavily cash-based country. If you have never been to Japan, then I will just say that I consider the UK to still be a heavily cash-based country.

You consider the UK heavily cash based? I suppose it depends on which circles you move in, so to speak, but these days it's not all that hard to go card-only in the UK at all, and the UK has long had far wider card acceptance than other European countries.
 

radamfi

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In another spite to visitors, there is a (newly introduced at the time I went) surcharge of about £2 if using cash

So previously there was NO surcharge? It is standard practice to offer a discount for not buying tickets from the driver so arguably Stavanger was more "forgiving" than most until recently.
 

CatfordCat

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Reading Buses have done contactless for a few months (more here) as well as mobile phone and their own smart card options
 

radamfi

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Reading Buses have done contactless for a few months (more here) as well as mobile phone and their own smart card options

I watched the video showing how to pay by contactless. It takes 9 seconds from placing the card onto the contactless reader to pulling out the paper ticket. So if 10 people in a row pay by contactless that's a total of 90 seconds. There's no discount for buying a day ticket using m-tickets, they don't offer day tickets on smartcard and it even costs less using cash/contactless after 6pm.
 

SCH117X

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Suppose its dependent on the software to some extent; Transdev Blazefields M-ticket gives a full 24 hour validity for a day ticket on the mobile whereas one bought on the bus is only valid that day. I typically use them late Friday afternoon and then Saturday daytime. Last weeks £4.30 cost covered around £15 worth of travel and if I had bought on bus I would have had to buy one for the Friday and one for the Saturday so it would have been double the price.
 

Deerfold

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Suppose its dependent on the software to some extent; Transdev Blazefields M-ticket gives a full 24 hour validity for a day ticket on the mobile whereas one bought on the bus is only valid that day. I typically use them late Friday afternoon and then Saturday daytime. Last weeks £4.30 cost covered around £15 worth of travel and if I had bought on bus I would have had to buy one for the Friday and one for the Saturday so it would have been double the price.

That's not well advertised! I'll have to try that out.

They do accept contactless on the 36 Ripon-Harrogate-Leeds, but only for buying normal singles and returns. There's a trial running on the 662 Bradford-Keighley where you activate an app as you board the bus and it then works out from GPS where you get off the bus and charges you (half price during the trial).
 

Bungle965

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That's not well advertised! I'll have to try that out.

They do accept contactless on the 36 Ripon-Harrogate-Leeds, but only for buying normal singles and returns. There's a trial running on the 662 Bradford-Keighley where you activate an app as you board the bus and it then works out from GPS where you get off the bus and charges you (half price during the trial).
I wonder if there are any limitations apart from cost of expanding the contactless payment system fleet wide for Transdev.
Stagecoach Manchester have it and from what I have seen it has proved popular.
Sam
 

edwin_m

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The 800 Glasgow Airport bus advertises taking cards, but the equipment appears to consist of a standard card reader that the driver fetches out from a cubbyhole and conducts a standard chip&pin or contactless transaction. Not very time-efficient and I didn't get a ticket just a card receipt (cue major battle with our expenses people...).

Madrid airport bus takes contactless in the more expected way with a reader on the partition next to the cab. However, my Spanish not being up to asking whether they give you a ticket with contactless, I stuck to cash.
 

jon0844

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But still only to buy a paper ticket - no capping or using the card as your ticket.
Progress is slow.
But it certainly helps. I am still constantly amazed that a bus company wouldn't do whatever it takes to make it easy for the public to give them money. Especially if more people may travel because they don't need to worry about having the right change, or any money at all.

Imagine someone opening a shop today and not being set up to take cards.
 

edwin_m

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My local shop still refuses to accept cards under £5, or possibly charges a fee, can't remember which. But with bus operators mostly being large companies and the extra cost and risk of handling cash on a vehicle I'd have thought most of them would jump at the chance of doing something to reduce that.
 

jon0844

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I wouldn't mind paying 30p or something for a low value transaction in a shop, but some outright refuse. I had a choice of spending £10 by buying stuff I didn't want in a Londis (I wanted a drink costing £1.80 or something) or going without.

So I went without.

Mind you, a local Costcutter moaned to a colleague about paying with a £10 note for some milk. Was told to bring exact money next time! Has Costcutter been bought out by Arriva or something?!
 

johntea

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The fish and chip shop charge 15p for transactions under £5 via contactless, but at work there is no fee for smaller payments.

In reality, it's 2017 not 2007 and we're moving towards a cashless society slowly but surely and they should be encouraging me to use contactless not want to charge me 15p so I go to the nearest cash machine to draw out a tenner instead to pay like I did!

Not sure if Transdev round here (Harrogate) have contactless payments on the bus yet, they do have a mobile app problem being you can't buy a single/return ticket for a shorter journey through that. It would certainly be very useful on the Number 1 route!
 

jon0844

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Mobile ticketing apps are pretty useless for a lot of travel until they have all fares. At the moment, our complaints about the tickets you can't get from a rail TVM pale into insignificance compared to bus apps!

For many people, it's a simple single or return and possibly two adults, one child type scenarios. Yet the mobile apps I'm forced to use only let me use one ticket at a time!
 

Deerfold

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Not sure if Transdev round here (Harrogate) have contactless payments on the bus yet, they do have a mobile app problem being you can't buy a single/return ticket for a shorter journey through that. It would certainly be very useful on the Number 1 route!

Transdev have contactless payment, but so far only on the 36 and then to buy a normal paper ticket.
 
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