Contactless troubles in London

[radamfi]

I have numerous cards so if one doesn't work, another will, but I wouldn't want to lose money as a result of the day's travel being spread over two cards and so losing the full effect of capping.

 

[Starmill]

TfL have decided not to accept cash any more, the main use of which was as a back-up payment method, for their own operational convenience. It's therefore a bit rich of them to ask people to delay their journeys because the new method of payment they encourage everyone to use isn't reliable enough. Unless there is some evidence that the card is faulty, or has been blacklisted the course of action taken by 34D should prevail, or some other course that doesn't result in prospective passengers being asked not to travel on the bus they're attempting to board.

 

[najaB]

It's therefore a bit rich of them to ask people to delay their journeys because the new method of payment they encourage everyone to use isn't reliable enough.

I wouldn't describe 12 years as 'new'.

 

[radamfi]

I wouldn't describe 12 years as 'new'.

I thought he was talking about contactless, which isn't 12 years old.

In the early days of Oyster, if the card didn't work, you got a free ride as the assumption was that the equipment was faulty.

 

[najaB]

I thought he was talking about contactless, which isn't 12 years old.

In the early days of Oyster, if the card didn't work, you got a free ride as the assumption was that the equipment was faulty.

I know that, the point I'm making is that Oyster has been the preferred payment method for over a decade, cash was only seen as a backup - which starmill recognised in his post.

 

[island]

TfL have decided not to accept cash any more, the main use of which was as a back-up payment method, for their own operational convenience. It's therefore a bit rich of them to ask people to delay their journeys because the new method of payment they encourage everyone to use isn't reliable enough. Unless there is some evidence that the card is faulty, or has been blacklisted the course of action taken by 34D should prevail, or some other course that doesn't result in prospective passengers being asked not to travel on the bus they're attempting to board.

There remains the facility for drivers to issue an unpaid fare notice for passengers who are at risk.

 

[34D]

There remains the facility for drivers to issue an unpaid fare notice for passengers who are at risk.

But 'at risk' is very subjective. Would you want to become involved/embroiled with IRCAS?

 

[Deerfold]

But 'at risk' is very subjective. Would you want to become involved/embroiled with IRCAS?

How embroiled are you if you just have to pay your fare at a later date? Do IRCAS deal with UPFNs for London Buses?

 

[blackanchorage]

At a tube station on Saturday, none of the contactless readers would recognise my card, even though it was the third journey I was making. Station staff couldn't help even though they checked some screen. I ended up using a friend's spare card, as I had no other way to travel. I tried again at an overground station a couple of hours later, still failed. Ended up paying over the cap, very annoying.

Banks says no payments were declined, I think this is a TFL issue.

It's working again this morning, I've asked TFL to explain, but they weren't very helpful with their first response.

Roger

 

[Panda]

How did you ask TFL to explain? Have you phoned them up? They are generally pretty good in resolving these matters.

What was the code on the reader when it didn't let you travel as that would be quite important in knowing whether the issue lies with your bank or with TFL.

 

[blackanchorage]

How did you ask TFL to explain? Have you phoned them up? They are generally pretty good in resolving these matters.

What was the code on the reader when it didn't let you travel as that would be quite important in knowing whether the issue lies with your bank or with TFL.

Thanks for the reply. I just used the online form. It's the first time it's happened, so I thought it might be my credit card. Next time I'll ask for the code.

Roger

 

[cjmillsnun]

I think I'll just stick with my Oyster!

Exactly why I have an Oyster. No messing about, tap and you're done.

 

[lookapigeon]

The only time i've ever had real issues with contactless is when I had a defective card - due to the way I stored it in my wallet it got a little bit bent and must have knackered the aerial within as it would be temperemental and would work sometimes, others not, both in shops and on TFL.

Got a replacement card (and changed where I stored it in my wallet so it didn't get bent) and had no problems at all since, so if you are experiencing problems it might be worth getting a new card issued.

 

[jon0844]

Android Pay has just launched today in the UK, at long last (given how long Apple Pay has been available).

Another way to pay for travel for a lot of people from now on! Interestingly, Google has said that the phone could warn you automatically that you forgot to tap out when leaving stations, which is a clever feature but not one I'd necessarily rely on!

 

[Haywain]

Android Pay has just launched today in the UK, at long last (given how long Apple Pay has been available).

Another way to pay for travel for a lot of people from now on! Interestingly, Google has said that the phone could warn you automatically that you forgot to tap out when leaving stations, which is a clever feature but not one I'd necessarily rely on!

However, an inability to tap out due to a dead battery will mean an incomplete journey fee being incurred. So anyone planning on using this means of payment needs to keep an eye on that.

 

[jon0844]

Given the phone has a virtual card (with a slightly different number) I wonder if you can tap out with your standard CPC if that should happen?

Given it's still the same account, and things are worked out later, that should work - in theory?

 

[Mike395]

Certainly doesn't with Apple Pay - the app and physical card are seen as two separate numbers - the TfL system only reads/charges the Apple Pay card number, it's Apple not TfL that then bill the 'real' account.

 

[anme]

With Apple Pay, the retailer never sees your card number, so there's no way for TfL to link the transactions together. I don't know how Android Pay works, but I guess that the same applies.

 

[jon0844]

I wondered if there could be a reconciliation done later on, but if TfL never will see the card details then I guess not.

However, if you can see your journey history based on your actual card then I'd have thought the backend system could work it out.

 

[anme]

However, if you can see your journey history based on your actual card then I'd have thought the backend system could work it out.

I assume this is not possible if you use both Apple Pay and contactless.
Of course, it might be possible to do these things if TfL and Apple integrated their systems to some degree. Apart from data protection issues, there's not much incentive for Apple to do this as they get no kick-back from spend on a bank card.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the phone has a virtual card (with a slightly different number) I wonder if you can tap out with your standard CPC if that should happen?

Given it's still the same account, and things are worked out later, that should work - in theory?

Given that your battery might run out, I would suggest that it's always better to use a contactless card directly than the same card through Apple Pay.

 

[me123]

Given that your bank card can stop working or be lost/stolen, I'm not convinced that the "risk" with phones losing battery is particularly concerning. I personally prefer mobile payments - I would be quite wary of taking a bank card out in a busy LU station (I'd be less likely to notice it being stolen than a phone), plus the phone gives you a visual confirmation that you've tapped in or out, so you know you've not accidentally tailgated someone.

I'm generally aware of my phone's battery level, so I'd know if it was low. And most iPhones (and other phones too) can last a very long time if you put them into airline mode (which probably makes sense for quite a bit of the tube network anyway - there's not much signal in tunnels...), so if you were going to run out of battery you just pop it onto airline mode.

 

[bluegoblin7]

With Apple Pay, the retailer never sees your card number, so there's no way for TfL to link the transactions together. I don't know how Android Pay works, but I guess that the same applies.

Your guess is correct. Functionally it works a little differently, but transactions with the same card on a different format won't get linked.

 

[island]

Indeed, the phone and the card have different PANs.

What I don't know is whether a person linking the same card to two Apple Pay devices will generate a different PAN for each. I have an Apple Watch and an iPhone SE so I should try that.

 

[swt_passenger]

With Apple Pay, the retailer never sees your card number, so there's no way for TfL to link the transactions together. I don't know how Android Pay works, but I guess that the same applies.

I've only ever used Apple Pay once just to check it was set up and working, (as I have an NR discount on my normal Oyster PAYG), but the journey was most definitely linked to my existing contactless account for the same card. I've just double checked my account, and that is still the case showing for that journey, made back in late November.

I was surprised by this, as it didn't match up with predictions, so started a thread about it at the time: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123607&highlight=apple

 

[anme]

I've only ever used Apple Pay once just to check it was set up and working, (as I have an NR discount on my normal Oyster PAYG), but the journey was most definitely linked to my existing contactless account for the same card. I've just double checked my account, and that is still the case showing for that journey, made back in late November.

Anyone care to comment on how this might work? Does it require some integration between Apple's and TfL's systems (as I speculated above)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone care to comment on how this might work? Does it require some integration between Apple's and TfL's systems (as I speculated above)?

We never got to a conclusion, other than mojo confirming in the last post that he saw the same 'linkage'.

 

[Panda]

The tokenisation happens at your issuer, not with Apple. Your card details are not passed around, but tokenised details are.

Same card on different devices will be issued with separate PANs.

 

[Be3G]

In what's becoming a bit of a long-running thread of me documenting my issues with contactless cards on TfL's services, I saw some new behaviour today!

For a few months now I've been using Apple Pay on an iPhone SE; I prefer it over using a plastic CPC because of the on-device confirmation that a touch in/out has been recorded. Turns out that was quite useful today, because I boarded a bus that showed no signs of having accepted my touch-in at all. The person in front touched in fine with a green light, and as they walked away from the Oyster reader I approached it with my phone ‘primed’ (i.e. already authorised by my fingerprint) expecting the light on the reader to return to amber. Instead it went out completely but my reactions weren't quick enough so I touched the phone to the reader anyway.

For what seemed like a few seconds the reader light remained off, and my phone did nothing. Then, eventually, with the light still off my phone showed that a transaction had gone through. There was no beep, no green light, and the little LCD screen that shows the passenger's Oyster/CPC details still showed the details of the previous touch-in (it mentioned a Freedom Pass). There was absolutely no indication that I had touched in successfully at all, except from my phone.

In fact, I thought that maybe my phone was playing up, showing a transaction that hadn't occurred – except, looking a little while later, the touch-in had been recorded on my Oyster account.

(In case anyone's a tad bemused, I'm documenting these experiences mainly so if anyone else has had similar things happen they can be slightly reassured that they're not going mad…)

 

[miami]

I'm not 100% convinced of the discrete works/doesn't work nature of contactless cards. I raised this point on another thread and those who understand the technology better than I have assured me that it's not possible, but I still hold on to the belief that a failing card can work intermittently, depending on the particular reader it is being used with.

Absolutely, it's either read or it isn't read, but different readers seem to have different powers. My debit card no longer works at all, but for about a year it partially worked. Some stores it worked about 80% of the time, others it didnt work at all. Sometime flexing the card made it work slightly.

Today I used apple-pay to exit from north acton tube, eventually got a 99 seek assistance. Tried at the next barrier and it worked.

I've seen 3 states
1) Doesn't read
2) Reads but doesn't compute (reads a corrupted value?)
3) Reads and works

Seen the same with oyster (again flexing the card sometimes kicked it back into life)

 

[Haywain]

Absolutely, it's either read or it isn't read, but different readers seem to have different powers. My debit card no longer works at all, but for about a year it partially worked. Some stores it worked about 80% of the time, others it didnt work at all. Sometime flexing the card made it work slightly.

Today I used apple-pay to exit from north acton tube, eventually got a 99 seek assistance. Tried at the next barrier and it worked.

I've seen 3 states
1) Doesn't read
2) Reads but doesn't compute (reads a corrupted value?)
3) Reads and works

Seen the same with oyster (again flexing the card sometimes kicked it back into life)

I have had similar problems with an Oyster card. On close inspection there was a hairline crack in the edge of the card which had damaged the wire loop (non-technical term!) which runs around the edge of the card. As the card had always been kept in a ticket wallet it was probably more to do with the age of the card than anything else. I would expect that the basic technology of contactless cards is much the same, so the reason for problems you have experienced could also be the same.