Continuing journey on day two on Off Peak Return

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lemonic

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Hello,

My friend wants to travel from Basingstoke to Stevenage.

He wants to travel on Friday afternoon, break his journey at Clapham Junction overnight and continue to Stevenage on Saturday. He'll return from Stevenage on Sunday i.e.
Basingstoke to Clapham Junction - Friday afternoon
Clapham Junction to Stevenage - Saturday
Stevenage to Basingstoke - Sunday

Is an Off Peak Return valid for this journey? i.e. Can you continue on the outward part of the Off Peak Return on day 2?

Thanks.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Is an Off Peak Return valid for this journey? i.e. Can you continue on the outward part of the Off Peak Return on day 2?

Sorry, let's try that again - I misunderstood what you asked.

This ticket has no additional restrictions, but the rules say:

BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE and
in all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket and until 04:29 the
following morning. If the
journey cannot be completed in
this time, the ticket may be
used to continue the journey
on the following day. Unless
otherwise indicated in the
relevant restriction code,
time restrictions apply as
from the initial origin
station on both days. The
appropriate restrictions for
the actual day on which travel
is being undertaken apply (for
example, it may be that day 1
is on Sunday, no restrictions
apply, but on day 2, the
Monday-Friday restrictions
apply). All travel must be
completed by 04:29 in the
morning after this second day.
Please note that break of
journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed in
the ticket restrictions.

This bit:
If the
journey cannot be completed in
this time, the ticket may be
used to continue the journey
on the following day.

is particularly relevant. To me that says you can't do this unless you run out of trains at Clapham Junction, which unless you travel *very* late you won't.

So I would say it is not valid. One option if splitting the journey into three singles or two off-peak returns with the train stopping at Clapham both ways doesn't seem viable (might you get an Advance for part of it?) might be to buy two Off Peak Returns in opposite directions and just use the return half of each, which would get you two singles valid for as many BoJ as you want for a month each, effectively.

Neil
 
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Haywain

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We're back to the old chestnut of who decides if "the journey cannot be completed...", and why. I believe that the ticket is valid to use in the way that the OP's friend wishes.
 

bb21

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I agree with Haywain's interpretation.

I can't link atm but there were plenty of discussions on this topic before. You may want to search for posts by thedbdiboy in the thread about NRCoC changes from October 2011.
 

Bletchleyite

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We're back to the old chestnut of who decides if "the journey cannot be completed...", and why.

To me it seems pretty clear it doesn't mean "if the passenger decides they do not wish to complete the journey".

The only two interpretations I see as making sense are:-

1. Journeys where it is completely impossible to do the journey in one day whenever you start (there are a few of these).

2. Journeys where the passenger starts too late and gets stuck somewhere. (Reasonably this should allow for the passenger stopping at a sensible location rather than some little halt in the middle of nowhere).

I'm fairly sure this has changed and it used to be more flexible, genuinely allowing an overnight BoJ at the passenger's desire.

Neil
 

Paul Kelly

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The only two interpretations I see as making sense are:-

1. Journeys where it is completely impossible to do the journey in one day whenever you start (there are a few of these).

2. Journeys where the passenger starts too late and gets stuck somewhere. (Reasonably this should allow for the passenger stopping at a sensible location rather than some little halt in the middle of nowhere).

But these scenarios do not actually involve a break of journey. See NRCoC Condition 16:
NRCoC said:
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or...

So you can still stop overnight in these situations even if the ticket prohibits break of journey.

The wording "if the journey cannot be completed in this time" imposes no such constraint regarding the reasonableness of completing the journey in one day.
 

Bletchleyite

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The wording "if the journey cannot be completed in this time" imposes no such constraint regarding the reasonableness of completing the journey in one day.

I think "if you cannot reasonably complete your journey in one day" implies the more strict of my readings - i.e. "if you can complete it in one day by starting at 6am, that's what you have to do", vs the less strict Off Peak Return where the overnight stop would be fine even if the only reason you got stuck was that you happened to start at 9pm.

Neil
 

Paul Kelly

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Well this is getting quite pedantic, but I would agree with you if the wording were "if you cannot reasonably complete the journey". But in my mind the wording "if you cannot reasonably complete your journey" implies more leeway in terms of when the journey takes place.

But in any case the reasonableness test applies only when the ticket prohibits break of journey, which is quite rare. Otherwise the more lenient "if the journey cannot be completed" test applies.
 

hairyhandedfool

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To me it seems pretty clear it doesn't mean "if the passenger decides they do not wish to complete the journey".

The only two interpretations I see as making sense are:-

1. Journeys where it is completely impossible to do the journey in one day whenever you start (there are a few of these).

2. Journeys where the passenger starts too late and gets stuck somewhere. (Reasonably this should allow for the passenger stopping at a sensible location rather than some little halt in the middle of nowhere).....

Last time this came up, I used that line of argument, it didn't get me anywhere then and I doubt it will get you anywhere now.
 

yorkie

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As posted in Clarification needed on break of journey rules last week, see the thread Revised NRCoC, in particular:
I too am disappointed to note that the overnight BoJ rules for Off Peak/Super Off Peak Singles or the outward portion of Off Peak/Super Off Peak Returns appear to have removed the option for a passenger to break their journey if they wish.

These new rules seem to state that overnight BoJ is only to be permitted if the journey cannot be completed on day 1. That, according to Condition 11, isn't classed as a BoJ anyway.

Just to clear this up, you can choose where you break your journey overnight if you need to do so. You do not have to travel to the furthest possible point (after all, there might not be anywhere to stay there, so that would be daft!).

Break of journey used to be barred on the outward portion of Savers, but has been allowed since 2008 (since they became off-peak tickets) unless specifically restricted in the restriction code for the specific journey - this only applies to a small number of journeys.

So things are getting more flexible, not less!

A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From the staff briefing document (linked earlier), for Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single; (also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns):
Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.​
I think the bit in bold means 04:29 on day two, not 04:29 on day three (since midnight, i.e. 00:00, is at the start of a day not the end). If so, then surely the new rules are clear that no travel at all is allowed after 04:29 on day 2, even if the journey could not be completed on day 1?

Er, it is actually meant to be 0429 on the third day. This has been clarified in the follow up Q&A sent out earlier this week. No-one spotted the confusing wording during the proof reading :oops:


It has now been clarified by ATOC in a brief that necessitation of break of journey is the customer's decision alone.

Hopefully all staff will read it!
I know some people won't accept this (and that's fine, that's their choice) but I can confirm AlterEgo and thedbdiboy speak with some authority on the subject.
 

Abpj17

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Would an alternative be to consider splitting the ticket at Clapham (subject to it being the same price or less)
 

lemonic

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Thank you all for your comments - I do recall the earlier threads now. I have let my friend know the different viewpoints and given the postings by people working in the industry either today or in the past I think he will go with the Off Peak Return as splitting would cost more.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know some people won't accept this (and that's fine, that's their choice) but I can confirm AlterEgo and thedbdiboy speak with some authority on the subject.

I do find (from the memo on that thread) this comparison interesting:

Anytime Single Two days without restriction. Second day continues past midnight and ends at 0429 in line with the new rules.

Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single;
(also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns) One day. Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.

Surely if it meant the Off Peak to be valid for two days without any condition, that's what it would say? Something like "Journey must commence on the date on the ticket, and must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day"?

Neil
 
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RJ

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Surely if it meant the Off Peak to be valid for two days without any condition, that's what it would say? Something like "Journey must commence on the date on the ticket, and must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day"?

Neil

I think it should stay as it is. With the present format, there's no way to clearly convey on the ticket that you must start on the start date and have until 0429 on the third day to complete the journey - subject to the aforementioned caveats. Changing the period shown on the outbound portion to two days would allow the journey to be started on the second day - and the last thing passengers and staff alike need is another confusing and obfuscated term to follow!
 
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Bletchleyite

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I think it should stay as it is. With the present format, there's no way to clearly convey on the ticket that you must start on the start date and have until 0429 on the third day to complete the journey - subject to the aforementioned caveats. Changing the period shown on the outbound portion to two days would allow the journey to be started on the second day - and the last thing passengers and staff alike need is another confusing and obfuscated term to follow!

Presumably this is to prevent re-use? I imagine some kind of electronic "compostage" could remove this need with ITSO? There seems no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to start the journey on the second day provided you haven't already started it.

Neil
 

John @ home

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There seems no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to start the journey on the second day provided you haven't already started it.
I think the train companies want to prevent this for commercial reasons.
The new rules simplify what had become a bit of a mess regarding overnight validity, and now make it clear that you can use them the next day if you can't complete your journey. It doesn't say you have to give reasons why you can't complete your journey. There is nothing to stop anyone breaking their journey at anytime the first day and resuming it the second day. The rule says 'if the journey cannot be reasonably completed on the first day' allowing for a very wide and sensible use of interpretation. The only requirement with off-peak/super off-peak tickets is that the journey is commenced on the first day. Believe it or not this is a genuine attempt to balance commercial requirements and passenger needs!
 
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