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Contra-Peak Flows out of London

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bcarmicle

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I live in London, and had cause the other day to take a contra-peak flow journey, i.e. a train out of Waterloo at about 8 AM and arriving back into Waterloo at about 6 PM. The AM train was about half-full from Clapham Junction, i.e. had you been one of the last ones on at Clapham Junction, you would almost certainly have had to sit next to a stranger; the PM train was maybe 3/4 seating capacity.

In some sense, this is a bit surprising; although London is a huge city and some number of people will have cause to make the contra-peak journey either reguarly or as a one-off (as I did), it was nonetheless more than I expected (especially in the morning) given that the number of trains into WAT must surely be approximately the number of trains out of WAT, and unless it was just my train that was unusually busy, there must have been one person leaving London for every three or four arriving.

I suppose I'm curious whether this busyness is:
(a) totally expected and contra-flow is not as quiet as I imagined
(b) usual for London but not all major cities
(c) usual for Waterloo but not other London termini
(d) entirely unusual and peculiar to my specific train
 
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swt_passenger

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I live in London, and had cause the other day to take a contra-peak flow journey, i.e. a train out of Waterloo at about 8 AM and arriving back into Waterloo at about 6 PM. The AM train was about half-full from Clapham Junction, i.e. had you been one of the last ones on at Clapham Junction, you would almost certainly have had to sit next to a stranger; the PM train was maybe 3/4 seating capacity.

In some sense, this is a bit surprising; although London is a huge city and some number of people will have cause to make the contra-peak journey either reguarly or as a one-off (as I did), it was nonetheless more than I expected (especially in the morning) given that the number of trains into WAT must surely be approximately the number of trains out of WAT, and unless it was just my train that was unusually busy, there must have been one person leaving London for every three or four arriving.

I suppose I'm curious whether this busyness is:
(a) totally expected and contra-flow is not as quiet as I imagined
(b) usual for London but not all major cities
(c) usual for Waterloo but not other London termini
(d) entirely unusual and peculiar to my specific train
Was this a down fast train? Even in the contra peak direction few trains stop at Clapham Junction, so those you can get on will be quite well used by default...
 

Ze Random One

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I routinely travel contra-peak in SE London. There are a number of "satellite" centres like Bromley, Croydon etc. that probably generate similar levels of rush hour public transport custom as cities like Cardiff or Nottingham. Given these cities have cosy 3 or 4 car trains rather than the 8-12 car services London gets, about 40-50% full is about right. That meets with my experience of about 50% seats still occupied out in zone 4/5.
 

3141

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The AM train was about half-full from Clapham Junction, i.e. had you been one of the last ones on at Clapham Junction, you would almost certainly have had to sit next to a stranger; the PM train was maybe 3/4 seating capacity.

That's an interesting comment; on most of my train journeys I expect that someone will be sitting next to me, or I'll be sitting next to someone, and if you live in London there'll be many journeys where two people sit in a double seat.

Some of the passengers on the 6 pm journey into London may have been going there for a meal or some form of entertainment. Or heading to another rail terminal for an onward journey to another part of Britain; or to an airport.
 

Meerkat

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It also depends where the train is going. It’s not unreasonable for long distance trains out of London to be busy at that time and then people returning in the evening.
Plenty of people go to Basingstoke, Portsmouth, Southampton, Bournemouth for the day for business or pleasure. People tend to think of SWR as a commuter operation but it is also an InterCity outfit.
 

Ianno87

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Such contra-peak services can be good for finding bargain advance fares, i.e. 12 carriage sets returning where they came from that the TOC may as well flot cheap fares to fill up.
 

InOban

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There are a lot of households where some people work in, say, London but others work outside, Croydon or Reading for example. Same in other cities.
 

Bn2020

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Between Woking/Guildford and London they don’t. I wrongly assumed they didn’t do them across the network. I thought I had read that somewhere, but I’ve generalised a specific case.
 

daveshah

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Between Woking/Guildford and London they don’t. I wrongly assumed they didn’t do them across the network. I thought I had read that somewhere, but I’ve generalised a specific case.

I suspect what you saw is that they don't do specific seat reservations anywhere on the network - but they still have advances with "counted places" for many journeys.
 

bramling

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I live in London, and had cause the other day to take a contra-peak flow journey, i.e. a train out of Waterloo at about 8 AM and arriving back into Waterloo at about 6 PM. The AM train was about half-full from Clapham Junction, i.e. had you been one of the last ones on at Clapham Junction, you would almost certainly have had to sit next to a stranger; the PM train was maybe 3/4 seating capacity.

In some sense, this is a bit surprising; although London is a huge city and some number of people will have cause to make the contra-peak journey either reguarly or as a one-off (as I did), it was nonetheless more than I expected (especially in the morning) given that the number of trains into WAT must surely be approximately the number of trains out of WAT, and unless it was just my train that was unusually busy, there must have been one person leaving London for every three or four arriving.

I suppose I'm curious whether this busyness is:
(a) totally expected and contra-flow is not as quiet as I imagined
(b) usual for London but not all major cities
(c) usual for Waterloo but not other London termini
(d) entirely unusual and peculiar to my specific train

There’s certainly some centres which generate a heavy flow in their own right, although these flows tend to be more akin to what one finds in provincial cities - far more concentrated in nature towards the traditional 9-5 rush *hour*, as opposed to the London peak which spreads from 0600 to 1000 for many journeys.

It would only take a couple of large office blocks or a business park to fill one or two trains which arrive in time for 0900 and leave conveniently after a 1700 finish.

Places like Crawley, Guildford, Reading, Welwyn Garden City are some examples off the top of my head. Then there’s Oxford and Cambridge which are special cases. It’s surprised me how the numbers heading on GN down services to Peterborough in the morning peak and early morning has increased over the years - by no means full, but notably busier than the ghost trains they once were.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Elstree and Borehamwood , for example has a heavy inwards flow of workers for such things as the film studios.... from that there London
 

jfisher21

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I used to catch the reading train from Clapham junction in the am peak, it was always full and standing with people going to Bedfont lakes (feltham), the it companies in bracknell and lots of other places too!
 

deltic

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I live in London, and had cause the other day to take a contra-peak flow journey, i.e. a train out of Waterloo at about 8 AM and arriving back into Waterloo at about 6 PM. The AM train was about half-full from Clapham Junction, i.e. had you been one of the last ones on at Clapham Junction, you would almost certainly have had to sit next to a stranger; the PM train was maybe 3/4 seating capacity.

In some sense, this is a bit surprising; although London is a huge city and some number of people will have cause to make the contra-peak journey either reguarly or as a one-off (as I did), it was nonetheless more than I expected (especially in the morning) given that the number of trains into WAT must surely be approximately the number of trains out of WAT, and unless it was just my train that was unusually busy, there must have been one person leaving London for every three or four arriving.

I suppose I'm curious whether this busyness is:
(a) totally expected and contra-flow is not as quiet as I imagined
(b) usual for London but not all major cities
(c) usual for Waterloo but not other London termini
(d) entirely unusual and peculiar to my specific train


DfT publish data on loading of trains by hour for major cities in the UK and main termini in London. London has the lowest contra peak flows in the morning and evening peaks in relation to capacity. Many cities have loadings of over 50% on inbound evening peak trains but nearer to 40% for morning peak departures. In London Fenchurch St and Moorgate have loadings of under 10% on inbound evening peak and outbound morning peak trains. Liverpool St and London Bridge also have loadings under 10% on outbound morning peak trains. Highest counter peak loadings in London both in the morning and evening are Euston (due to intercity services) and Vauxhall, the latter has 50% in the evening peak and 37% in the morning peak.

Data is at https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ays-in-major-cities-in-england-and-wales-2018
 

Hophead

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I used to catch the reading train from Clapham junction in the am peak, it was always full and standing with people going to Bedfont lakes (feltham), the it companies in bracknell and lots of other places too!

Still the case today: it can be difficult to board trains coming in from Reading in the evening peak at Richmond, and morning trains will certainly be full & standing from Clapham Junction (same with the Windsors).
 
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I live in Feltham and can confirm that there is considerable counter flow traffic on the Windsor lines in and out of Waterloo.

Feltham has many business parks as does Staines and Brentford, Egham has the University and Richmond and Twickenham also generate traffic.

There are also tourist attractions in Staines and Windsor.

In the evening trains have been known to leave Feltham with standing passengers
 

Taunton

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The amount of counter-peak, as well as off-peak generally, has risen considerably in the last generation. You may also have noticed that likely more, sometimes far more, outward passengers boarded at Clapham Junction than Waterloo. Sometimes the railway has not really caught up - an 08.00 from London Bridge to Uckfield dmu I took was only 2 cars, the other inward cars had been sent off ecs to the depot, but out to East Croydon had more standing crushed than seated.

The report into the Wimbledon derailment stated the 04.54 Basingstoke to Waterloo had 300 passengers. Someone wrote that this was an obvious mistake at that hour, must be the overall seating capacity. I explained to a non-Londoner that this sort of thing is no longer unusual.
 
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I haven’t got access to the link, but Southern’s services to Victoria notably get emptier after Clapham Junction in the morning. The stats suggested that SWT (it was a few years ago) from Clapham Junction was a major “destination” for Southern passengers. And the implication was that it was away from Waterloo not towards. Housing is cheaper in south London, jobs are more plentiful in South West London and the Thames Valley.

I think you did well to be only 50% full. Plenty of trains are more than that.
 

cle

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Watford is a big one too, lots of major businesses are there. Reading just be the biggest example though, surely.
 

Taunton

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Watford is a big one too, lots of major businesses are there. Reading just be the biggest example though, surely.
Quite a lot of the other GWML stations as well, Slough, and the various ones north of Heathrow airport.
 

Starmill

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This happens in a lot of cities even in places with relatively under-developed rail networks. For example there's a notable counter-flow of people travelling to Wilmslow in the morning peak and from there in the evening peak, which flows against commuters to Manchester city centre. I am sure @craigybagel and others have worked trains this affects!

School traffic seems unlikely at Clapham Junction on mainline trains, but it is a significant factor in some places too.
 

Horizon22

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In the SE area, Croydon, Bromley & Lewisham can all attract reasonable contra-peak flows from Victoria / London Bridge. Also, as a post above mentioned, 0600 arrivals can also be full and standing, sometimes more so than 0700 arrivals as ironically people try to "beat" the rush but actually end up causing it.

A lot of these people might be making cross-London journeys to reasonably sized employment. If you'#re interesting in the mapping of some of these flows try this (now outdated - 2011) nice site that maps commuter flows: https://commute.datashine.org.uk/
 

apk55

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In almost any large city there is a lot (quite probably most) of jobs are outside the city center. A lot are in satellite towns and industrial parks and in many cases will attract people from the city center. Because parking is often not such a problem as the city center then a lot probably commute by car, particularly if an orbital journey is required. In other cases people may commute through or around the center.
 

TheSeeker

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When I worked in Slough a lot of people commuted out by train from Ealing and West London as nobody wanted to live in, well Slough....
 
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