Control Period 6 - ideas?

[Ivo]

With the mass responses about the recent HLOS announcements starting to die down, I would like to turn everyone's attention to CP6. Several schemes that many thought were likely have not happened this time, with a likely factor being the workload already being substantial, and as such may well be moved back to the next investment period instead. Examples of such proposals include the electrification of the routes between Derby and Bristol, Selby and Hull, and Barking to Gospel Oak. But what else might we be expecting in CP6?

I think a likely candidate would be the remaining stretch of the Chiltern and Snow Hill routes right through to Worcester, with a potential infill between the latter and Ashchurch, and including Stratford-upon-Avon. The outstanding stretches of former NSE line south of the Thames, with the possible exception of Salisbury to Exeter (I would expect east of Salisbury to be wired), seem a likely candidate, with possible AC considerations given to HS1 extensions and of course Southampton to Weymouth including Lymington and a reopened passenger route to Hythe. Elsewhere, a new EMU service could be created on the Essex/Suffolk border, with the Felixstowe and Sudbury lines wired and through services operated between them. Other infrastructure works could include the four-tracking of the GEML, which would require substantial works in Chelmsford, and as an outside bet doubling of the Ockendon route.

Outside of the South-East and connections, local routes around Bristol seem possible, with the Greater Bristol Metro due for completion soon after the CP6announcement, although I would be surprised if this meant electrification beyond Taunton. The Caldervale line, certainly via Rochdale anyway, seems like a possibility, and certain other local routes in and around the M62 corridor - including the lines through Harrogate and Bradford Interchange and numerous routes between Sheffield and Doncaster/Leeds - may well follow suit. Various lines on Teesside, partly as an advanced version of the Tees Valley Metro scheme, could potentially be wired, especially subject to the fate of the Middlesbrough in relation to long-distance services. Might we see Morecambe, Windermere and the lines through Wigan Wallgate electrified as well? Other ideas could include various reopenings (with several lines around Newcastle likely candidates), and also the four-tracking of various other (often local) lines such as parts of the Trans-Pennine network.

Anyone else have any thoughts about all of this? What might you expect, or hope to see in your area(s) of interest?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Once the HLOS is out of the way , and turned into the Business PLan for CP5 , - next year basically , thought will be given to CP6 development - (there is money for this in the CP5 settlement)

Certainly more electification on key routes , freight capacity East Anglia to the North , HS2 interfaces etc.

Consider how much wiring was approved in CP4 , compared to the starting point of virtually zero. Time enough when the present work is cleared.

 

[142094]

Anything in the North East to be frank - something that will directly benefit all journeys into the major urban areas, instead of investment elsewhere that will only have part benefits (i.e. Northern Hub). Plenty of cases for reopenings

 

[Waverley125]

Ok, so I'm going to divvy up projects into 'regional/national' and 'local' to make things easier

Local
Bristol:

'Bristol Metro'-Portishead/Weston super Mare-Severn Beach/Bristol Parkway/Bath Spa, high frequency EMU

Leeds: Caldervale, Hallam & Harrogate line electrification, Askern line reopening & electrification (Leeds-Doncaster via Pontefract & Knottingley)

Nottingham: Matlock-Nottingham electrification, new stations along Nottingham-Sheffield

London: GOBLIN electrification, Crossrail 2

National/Regional

BML2

electrification:
Birmingham-Derby, Barnt Green-Bristol Parkway, Cheltenham-Nepwort, Swindon-Gloucester, Marlyebone-Oxford/Worcester via Birmingham/Stratford on Avon, Stratford-Birmingham, Lichfield TV-Derby, Moorthorpe-Sheffield, Sheffield-Doncaster, Doncaster-Hull via Selby/via Goole, Sheffield-Manchester, Stockport-Buxton, Selby-Hull, Northallerton-Middlesbrough, Manchester-Preston via Bolton, Carnforth-Barrow, Oxenholme-Windermere

 

[HSTEd]

Hopefully electrification to Plymouth and maybe even Penzance.

The business case is rather good once you include it in the cross country infill that will presumably be happening at some point.

 

[ainsworth74]

Anything in the North East to be frank - something that will directly benefit all journeys into the major urban areas, instead of investment elsewhere that will only have part benefits (i.e. Northern Hub). Plenty of cases for reopenings

I'd rather skip reopenings for the time being (though having said that the Leamside Line shouldn't be too hard to do) and get some electrification done. I think there'd be a pretty good case for wiring Darlo - Saltburn (perhaps even to Bishop as well seeing as it's a short) and certainly Middlesbrough - Newcastle (possibly looking at extending to Hexham/Carlisle and Nunthorpe). Unfortunatly I think the best that the NE can hope for is some cascaded stock to replace it's Pacers

 

[The Ham]

I would expect to see more linking of existing lines which are not currently linked in CP6.

For instance Farnborough currently has three different lines running through it, neither are easy to get between other than by a long walk or a taxi. For more details of my suggestion for Farnborough see my post here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1141898#post1141898

The possible advantages (depending on the link) of such links could include (if new routes were opened up):

Reduces demand for parking at existing stations
Rail services between lines which are not currently linked
Provides option to divert around engineering works
Possibility of New stations
Possibility of some routes still being able to run if there is a delay elsewhere on the network
Possibility of cycles to be carried on some trains during the peak hour cycle ban on trains to/from London
Possibility of more Sunday services


I would also expect the Camp Hill Line in Birmingham to be built, a new station at Chineham (Basingstoke), further electrification, further conversion to OHLE from 3rd rail (working out to in as replacement required, mainly SWML) and at the very least an announcement on what Crossrail 2 will look like (probably taking suburban trains to relieve the SWML and congestion at Waterloo) if not the start of design to run in parallel to the deign of HS2 phase 2. Finally the announcement (possibly from an independent Scottish government) that line speeds will be increased from Scotland to HS2, once it's built.

 

[142094]

I'd rather skip reopenings for the time being (though having said that the Leamside Line shouldn't be too hard to do) and get some electrification done. I think there'd be a pretty good case for wiring Darlo - Saltburn (perhaps even to Bishop as well seeing as it's a short) and certainly Middlesbrough - Newcastle (possibly looking at extending to Hexham/Carlisle and Nunthorpe). Unfortunatly I think the best that the NE can hope for is some cascaded stock to replace it's Pacers

In the long term there are some lines I'd like to see electrified, but what I'd like to see as soon as possible is more areas of the NE actually connected to the railway network, even if it does mean Pacers for the next 10 years.

Also, electrify Middlesbrough - Newcastle? Can't see that happening with the Metro wires after Sunderland.

 

[ainsworth74]

Also, electrify Middlesbrough - Newcastle? Can't see that happening with the Metro wires after Sunderland.

Urgh I'd forgotten about the Metro wires...

Guess the only solution there would be some sort of dual voltage stock running on 25kV AC and 1500v DC, but that would be nice and bespoke equalling expensive I'm sure (as well as an operational headache).

 

[David]

In CP6, while I expect a fair amount more electrification to be announced, I'm predicting it will be mainly infill to connect the various parts of the disjointed OHLE. Here's what I think will happen (infill schemes first):

• Birmingham - Derby
• Sheffield - Doncaster including the Rotherham loop (that will enable all Newcastle - Reading/Southampton XC services to go over to EMU operation)
• Swinton - Moorthorpe
• Meadowhall - Barnsley - Leeds
• Chesterfield - Nottingham
• Various small schemes around the East Midlands (such as the Trent Jn triangle fully wired)
• Harrogate loop

Now for the main part:

• Basingstoke - Waterloo
• Southampton - Bournemouth/Weymouth
• Bristol - (Gloucester) - Cheltenham - (Worcester) - Birmingham
• Swindon - Standish Jn
• Gloucester - Newport
• Bristol - Exeter
• Newbury - Taunton

Looking further into the future, in CP7 that would allow schemes such as Basingstoke - Exeter and the Cardiff - Portsmouth routes to be fully wired as well, and possibly Westbury - Weymouth as well.

 

[Ivo]

For instance Farnborough currently has three different lines running through it, neither are easy to get between other than by a long walk or a taxi. For more details of my suggestion for Farnborough see my post here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1141898#post1141898

Why would that be necessary? All it needs is a little intermodal cooperation.

There may be three different lines through Farnborough etc but there really is no need for connecting lines. They would have no freight value and no passenger value against the existing bus service (especially the Goldline 1 route, which calls at all of Camberley, Frimley, Farnborough and Aldershot and is within walking distance of Blackwater, Farnborough North and North Camp, and possibly even Ash Vale).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking further into the future, in CP7 that would allow schemes such as

[deliberate pause in quotation]

Basingstoke - Exeter

Perfectly reasonable.

Cardiff - Portsmouth

Not as worthwhile, although allowing for the Romsey 6 I think we can manage this.

Westbury - Weymouth

Bit ambitious there David!

 

[David]

Bit ambitious there David!

May be ambitious, but if all the other schemes I mentioned do go ahead, then you'll have an island of diesel operation in a sea of OHLE, plus parts of it will be wired up as well.

My way of thinking is that an entire area is converted to OHLE. While that's being done, a solution can be found for the tricky bits at the extremity (Dawlish sea wall), be it a new line or OHLE strung up and a huge shelter built around it to stop the water coming in .....

 

[The Ham]

Why would that be necessary? All it needs is a little intermodal cooperation.

There may be three different lines through Farnborough etc but there really is no need for connecting lines. They would have no freight value and no passenger value against the existing bus service (especially the Goldline 1 route, which calls at all of Camberley, Frimley, Farnborough and Aldershot and is within walking distance of Blackwater, Farnborough North and North Camp, and possibly even Ash Vale).

The problem is that buses are only so good, even one that runs every 10 minutes. As Hampshire also desire "Better interchange between rail routes in the Blackwater Valley" (see their LTP3 chapter 5: http://www3.hants.gov.uk/hampshire-ltp-2011-part-a-5-7.pdf ), which may well mean better buses, but would be better as a rail link IMO.

If you looked at my post I list out the passenger value to a link between Farnborough and Frimley, including the ability to provide extra stations at key locations which have poor public transport connections but are right next to a train line and providing a new service which would enable a direct service from Basingstoke (or even Salisbury) to Ascot running through Farnborough. It would also provide a useful diversion route for engineering works further up the SWML, along with other minor value items to passengers (also listed in my post).

 

[WatcherZero]

If the Northern super pte goes ahead we may see some non-timetabled minor wirings before CP6 funded locally.

However as to CP6 itself I predict it wont have any super major project in it, it will consist of infill electrification, accelerated resignalling and possibly some station rebuilds and capacity enhancement through platform lengthening.

 

[HSTEd]

My way of thinking is that an entire area is converted to OHLE. While that's being done, a solution can be found for the tricky bits at the extremity (Dawlish sea wall), be it a new line or OHLE strung up and a huge shelter built around it to stop the water coming in .....

Ayrshire Coast Line seems to indicate that OLE on a sea wall is not much of a problem. (Waves breaking over electrified railway lines?)

As for converting Basingstoke to Waterloo to OLE.... that would be horrendously complex, it is far more likely that the policy of "nibbling around the edges" would continue, with the section between Clapham Junction and Waterloo being the very last part of the South Western division to be converted.

 

[aformeruser]

A potential phase 6 scheme is extending the Manchester Airport spur to the Mid-Cheshire line in the Mobberley area. Mentioned here http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...utePlans/2009/Route 20 - North West Urban.pdf (Not just a scheme I would like to see in CP6.)

This could mean electrification of the Mid-Cheshire line to allow electrified TPE services to continue beyond Manchester Airport to Chester or Liverpool via Runcorn.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I think some MML infill electrification is likely in CP6, Sheffield – Doncaster, Sheffield – Leeds and (Bristol-) Birmingham – Derby (as part of an electrified core XC network) are almost certain. Additionally I would like to see Derby-Crewe and the Erewash Valley electrified as well.

Beyond the MML I think the Government will want to electrify rail routes to as many container ports as possible so Selby – Hull and Felixstowe – Ipswich – Ely/Cambridge* – Peterborough – Leicester – Birmingham to create an East/West electric freight route to complement the North/South electric spine.

* I expect that Breckland Line (Ely – Norwich) will be tacked on to this electrification to eliminate an obvious diesel island.

I also expect to see some detailed planning on the central section of East West Rail between Bedford and Cambridge to complete the missing link and allow freight to avoid going via London. On a side note does anybody have a clue how the electrification of EWR will affect the costs of The central sections, I think the central option was costed at around £250 million and the southern option at £300 million in 2009, but given the electrification announcement is this likely to go up by much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:East_West_Rail_Consortium_Central_map.jpg

 

[Ivo]

As for converting Basingstoke to Waterloo to OLE.... that would be horrendously complex, it is far more likely that the policy of "nibbling around the edges" would continue, with the section between Clapham Junction and Waterloo being the very last part of the South Western division to be converted.

Hmm. I would be tempted to suggest that once a complete route or two exists we could well see dual voltage routes in existence, especially if Woking to Weymouth and/or Portsmouth is completed during the lifespan of the 455s and 456s (O/T - when are they due at SWT again?). I know it's not a perfect solution, but as long as there trains that cannot be converted around, why not? Once all services can use OHLE, the third rail could be removed when it's convenient for the traveller, such as at 0300 in 1km chunks when movements are nonexistant.

 

[swt_passenger]

... I know it's not a perfect solution, but as long as there trains that cannot be converted around, why not? Once all services can use OHLE, the third rail could be removed when it's convenient for the traveller, such as at 0300 in 1km chunks when movements are nonexistant.

People have already tried to explain that you cannot have dual voltage over long lengths of route, only in discrete overlapping areas where the traction changeover occurs.

The sort of thing you are implying (if I've got the above right) is both supplies being present together between for instance Woking and Waterloo? It isn't technically workable over such distances.

 

[Ivo]

Any particular reason for that? It does seem quite an odd scenario, provided of course that the two can be left to run independently of one-another.

 

[anthony263]

I think it would be ideal to wire the local branches around Bristol including the Severn beach branch

 

[DavidBrown]

I think it would be ideal to wire the local branches around Bristol including the Severn beach branch

Indeed by the time the GWML and CrossCountry routes are done, there's not actually that much left around Bristol to electrify, so it'd make much more sense to get it all done rather than leave an odd bit of non-electric track.

The interesting bit will be just how much of the south-west will get electrification. We're pretty much all thinking that Bristol to Exeter will get done sooner rather than later, but beyond that is anyone's guess.

 

[swt_passenger]

Any particular reason for that? It does seem quite an odd scenario, provided of course that the two can be left to run independently of one-another.

Because AC systems have an earth bonded traction current return system through the rail, and DC system's rails are floating with respect to earth, and the two systems do not safely mix.

 

[aformeruser]

Because AC systems have an earth bonded traction current return system through the rail, and DC systems rails are floating with respect to earth, and the two systems do not mix.

I understand the problem with dual voltage trains trying to take different kinds of voltage simultaneously.

However, is there any reason why you couldn't DC electrify, for instance, Ormskirk to Lancaster and use DC only trains running Lancaster-Ormskirk-Liverpool Central and continue to use AC only trains between Preston and Lancaster? (I'm not recommending that idea as something that should be done, just asking the question.)

 

[tbtc]

what else might we be expecting in CP6?

Since you've asked what I expect (rather than a long wishlist!), I look at it this way:

Routes that CP5 will have helped the business case for significantly by CP5:

• Water Orton - Derby
• Derby - Matlock
• Nottingham - Chesterfield
• Sheffield - Doncaster
• Swinton - Moorthorpe
• Marylebone - Worcester
• Bolton - Southport (now Kirkby is going to be a self contained shuttle)
• Selby - Hull

Routes that CP5 will have helped the business case for slightly

• Calder Valley
• Harrogate Loop
• Hallam Line
• South Pennine Line
• Bromsgrove - Bristol Parkway
• Gloucester - Newport

Routes that CP5 hasn't really changed the business case for

• GOBLIN
• Birmingham - Norwich
• Marshlink
• Uckfield

I'd rather skip reopenings for the time being (though having said that the Leamside Line shouldn't be too hard to do) and get some electrification done

Agreed (as usual!)

I think some MML infill electrification is likely in CP6, Sheffield – Doncaster, Sheffield – Leeds and (Bristol-) Birmingham – Derby (as part of an electrified core XC network) are almost certain. Additionally I would like to see Derby-Crewe and the Erewash Valley electrified as well.

Beyond the MML I think the Government will want to electrify rail routes to as many container ports as possible so Selby – Hull and Felixstowe – Ipswich – Ely/Cambridge* – Peterborough – Leicester – Birmingham to create an East/West electric freight route to complement the North/South electric spine.

* I expect that Breckland Line (Ely – Norwich) will be tacked on to this electrification to eliminate an obvious diesel island.

I also expect to see some detailed planning on the central section of East West Rail between Bedford and Cambridge to complete the missing link and allow freight to avoid going via London. On a side note does anybody have a clue how the electrification of EWR will affect the costs of The central sections, I think the central option was costed at around £250 million and the southern option at £300 million in 2009, but given the electrification announcement is this likely to go up by much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:East_West_Rail_Consortium_Central_map.jpg

All sounds reasonable

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd rather skip reopenings for the time being (though having said that the Leamside Line shouldn't be too hard to do) and get some electrification done. I think there'd be a pretty good case for wiring Darlo - Saltburn (perhaps even to Bishop as well seeing as it's a short) and certainly Middlesbrough - Newcastle (possibly looking at extending to Hexham/Carlisle and Nunthorpe). Unfortunatly I think the best that the NE can hope for is some cascaded stock to replace it's Pacers

I believe that the North East might be an exceptional case in that select line reopenings and just plain and simple increases in service frequencies would be more beneficial to the local population, and far more cost effective, than electrification.

At the very top of my list of priorities, I would like to see a half hourly train service between Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesborough, with one all stations service as at present and one fast service calling at only Stockton, Hartlepool, Sunderland and Heworth between Middlesborough and Newcastle. Connecting this back into the Carlisle services would be even better, utilising mainly class 156s would be superb and if the service could be run by 158s, then that would be perfect.

I would even gladly accept more Pacers in the North East if it would make this aim possible (Of course in reality there are greater obstacles such as the long signalling sections down the Durham Coast and the limited paths available between Sunderland and Newcastle), or even more pressingly, to provide more doubled up Pacer formations on peak services through Newcastle: The four 142s that Heaton gained from those returned from FGW only served to lengthen a single morning peak service between Newcastle and Middlesborough, and even that small gesture has already proven indispensable for the number of Tees-side passengers using the service. If, say, pairs of 150s were used in place of the present single 142s then that in itself would be comparative luxury, and a fully class 156 operated service would do nicely.

Furthermore, the Blyth and Tyne route to Bedlington and Ashington would be a valuable public transport link into Northumberland, whether facilitated through the extension of the present Morpeth - Newcastle/Metrocentre stoppers, or through a more ambitious Tyne & Wear Metro extension.

I would also advocate re-connecting Washington to the local rail network of Tyneside, either through a comparatively simple (and short) extension of the Tyne & Wear Metro, or via a far more ambitious and costly reopening of the Leamside line to heavy rail services.

With so little of the passenger potential of local rail in the North East of England being exploited (Outside of Tyne & Wear itself), there are many worthwhile projects, that could be acheived through relatively incremental means, that should take precedence before costly and time consuming electrification projects are considered.

 

[burty76]

Surely there wouldnt be any Pacers left after CP5? There's mass orders of new trains, which means there should be mass cascades of rolling stock, and the awful and embarrasing Pacers should be the first to go.

 

[Ivo]

Surely there wouldnt be any Pacers left after CP5? There's mass orders of new trains, which means there should be mass cascades of rolling stock, and the awful and embarrasing Pacers should be the first to go.

After CP5 they fall foul of DDA requirements.

 

[sprinterguy]

Surely there wouldnt be any Pacers left after CP5? There's mass orders of new trains, which means there should be mass cascades of rolling stock, and the awful and embarrasing Pacers should be the first to go.

Admittedly, my post wasn't referring specifically to CP6 aspirations. Only countering an argument against line reopenings and for electrification in North East England.

 

[jopsuk]

Urgh I'd forgotten about the Metro wires...

Guess the only solution there would be some sort of dual voltage stock running on 25kV AC and 1500v DC, but that would be nice and bespoke equalling expensive I'm sure (as well as an operational headache).

25kV AC/ Some sort of DC overhead is not uncommon on the continent- indeed, every single TGV (as far as I know) can run on those voltages for example, as much of electrified France that isn't LGV is 1500V. There's even ways of doing it with a single pantograph- other than the collection method, it's not really any different to having DV as seen in the south.