Conversation me and my mate had the other day about missing the last bus home

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ReverendFozz

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Hope this is in the right section, Me and my mate were about late running trains and what happens if you miss a last connection i.e the last bus home...

In 2010 I was coming home from York to Durham, the train had been delayed because of a fatality and when I got to Durham I had missed the last bus back home, now this also happened on a run back to Newcastle in 1999, on that occasion I managed to get a lift home. When I got back to Durham I knew there was nobody for me to call on and could not get a taxi as I was flat broke, so I asked East Coast if they could help me out and the guys general attitude was 'There is nothing we can do, your just going to have to walk, I had to walk 12 miles back home', going as far to say 'you should have got an earlier train' well that is a fair enough comment, but I bad been to football and that was the only train I could get after the final whistle, basically saying the situation was beyond East Coast's Control

Talking to my mate the other and he was saying the same happened to him, and he had to walk about 4 or 5 miles, walking is not a problem as I like to go out walking with my dog, but the fact it was close to midnight with god awful s**tty weather and taking 4 hours to walk home, but what is the official rules on passengers missing there last bus or train, do the TOCs have any kind of duty to make sure passengers get home, I mean I am not bothered about it now, but me and my pal would like to know what the rules state and exactly the duty of care to punters or are they perfectly within there rights to turn somebody without any kind of help.

Hope someone can answer the question

Thank You in advance

Fozz
 
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DaveNewcastle

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. . . . . but what is the official rules on passengers missing there last bus or train, do the TOCs have any kind of duty to make sure passengers get home, . . . . .
If you have a valid ticket to travel, which is evidence of a Contract, then it will show the destination.
Railway operators have obligations under that Contract to convey ticket-holding passengers to that destination, by whatever means, but not to "get home".

I suggest you read Conditions 43 to 45 of the NRCoC for a detailled description of those obligations.

. . . . .and could not get a taxi as I was flat broke. . . . .
I must say that it is unwise to knowingly or deliberately embark on a journey which involves the last available service and without taking the simple precaution of carring the means to pay for alternatives in the event of an unplanned mishap. Perhaps even foolish?

. . . . . but I bad been to football and that was the only train I could get after the final whistle, basically saying the situation was beyond East Coast's Control. . . .
Its certainly unreasonable to expect and rail operator to take football or whistles into account when assisting passengers! The advice, with hindsight, that you should have taken an earlier train does seem to be quite appropriate here.
 

ainsworth74

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I've had a quick read of the NRCoC and I think Condition 43 would apply here specifically:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded

If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination printed on or stored on your ticket, and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.
Now reading that says to me that TOCs only really have a duty of care to get you to the destination station on your ticket and that their responsibility ends there. So I think they're well within their rights to turn you away as long as you've got to your destination station.
 
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cuccir

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Your destination is the railway station, not your home, hotel, or wherever you are travelling.

The only exception would be vulnerable people being left in dangerous or isolated locations: this might apply to under-16s, maybe some disabled passengers depending on disability, and some older passengers depending on mobility - even if you can argue that they should arrange a back-up, that still doesn't excuse leaving them.

But yes- the message is that if you're getting the last train home, have a fall back plan for if it's gonna be late!
 

AlexS

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The only people the railway has a duty of care towards beyond the destination printed on the ticket are minors and vulnerable persons - in these cases generally if they state they are stranded at a railway station they will be asked to remain on the premises for staff to keep an eye on them and be handed over to a police officer at the earliest opportunity.

Often as a courtesy measure however if your not being able to get home is due to delays on the railway if you have a taxi onward it may be asked to drop you off at home as applicable if it's not too far away from the station - not a guarantee though and not a right either.
 

ReverendFozz

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I've had a quick read of the NRCoC and I think Condition 43 would apply here specifically:



Now reading that says to me that TOCs only really have a duty of care to get you to the destination station on your ticket and that their responsibility ends there. So I think they're well within their rights to turn you away as long as you've got to your destination station.
Fair point, but it was more the attitude he gave me, as for an earlier train, that couldn't work I was at a match and I had a ticket for that specific train, least I know the rules if it happens again

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
 

WelshBluebird

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I must have been lucky with FGW then!

When I was on a work placement from university last year I was delayed for two hours going from Barnstaple to Bath Spa because the train broke down. I was due to get the national express coach from Bath to Shepton Mallet at 10.30pm (needed because First / the council had cut a load of the Sunday buses) but obviously I missed it because of the delay. There's only one coach from Bath to Shepton Mallet and it being late evening I would have had little option but to spend quite a lot of money on a taxi. I didn't think they would offer a taxi or anything to help me out, but I decided to ask anyway. As it happened the staff at Exeter St Davids and at Bath Spa were brilliant, and between them they got me a taxi to take me on the extra leg from Bath to Shepton Mallet.

So was I just lucky, or is this FGW policy?
 
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exile

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Same happened to me on a National Express coach that arrived in Liverpool 2 hours late and a few minutes after the last local train home. In theory one could sue for a consequential loss but the contract you have with the train operator doesn't allow for compensation for such losses.

I wish anyone luck who arrives at Carlisle very late and has to get a taxi to, say, Hawick!
 

DaveNewcastle

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In theory one could sue for a consequential loss but . . . .
Not just in theory; a passenger is quite entitled to sue in reality.
But I can't imagine that there is a single provider of public transport which doesn't limit their responsibility such that any Claim of that nature would be doomed to failure.

There are many examples of Railway operators providing assistance beyond their strictly applied obligations, but a passenger will never be wise to assume that they will receive such assistance. The destination on the ticket is where the obligations end.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I think the Courts (if it ever got to court) would be keen to limit the liability in these cases as they would recognise that to impose a liability beyond that of the paid destination would 'open the floodgates of litigation' and therefore vast increases in ticket prices, amongst other effects.

A similar case was seen in Hill v Chief Constable of West Yorkshire where it was recognised that to impose liability would lead to hundreds and hundreds of cases brought against the police and the introduction of defensive rather than proactive policing.
 

34D

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There are sometimes ways to 'engineer' situations to your benefit.

Let's say your journey endpoint is York (travelling Durham-York on an evening). If your ticket is Durham-Poppleton (a suburb of York) then the price may well be the same, but as long as you allow the appropriate interchange time to change trains at York, then you are 'covered' for a taxi to Poppleton.

Now, poppleton is almost at the boundary of the city of York. Many taxi drivers will be happy to take you on a shorter journey to a destination of your choice elsewhere in the City, and bill the railway company the expected amount.
 

yorkie

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On one occasion I was in a taxi to York, and as I wanted to be somewhere that, by road, was 'short' of the station, it was no problem for me to be dropped off where I wanted to be. This was better all round for everyone :) But it's down to luck in terms of what the taxi driver allows, and whether where you want to be is en-route to the station or not.
 

calc7

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I too have had good amounts of success in persuading taxi drivers to drop me short of or nearby to the intended station.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I too have benefitted from a little negotioation with a taxi driver during travel contracted by a TOC following a cancellation. (In fact the several hundred mile length of the journey put me at a moral obligation to the driver!).
However, it would be prudent to be quite clear to others and to the OP.
The Rail Company has a duty to convey their passengers to their booked destination. And no further.
If they choose to sub-contract that duty to a taxi or coach firm or any other mode, then all the Contractural terms remain as booked - to the Destination only.

Of course, any taxi or coach driver who knows that they, or their Company, have an order to fulfill the journeys will be open to a little negotioation. Why not stop off here or go over there? - the driver will be paid by the Company, and the Company doesn't know how their contractors actually fulfill their obligations.

We all like a little scam which works in our favour, don't we?

But no. The moment anything beyond the original Contract occurs, then we're in trouble. A deviation here, an un contracted stop there, an accident off-route. The insurance is void, the Contract is void, the compensation is innapplicable, the losses and damage are beyond the Railway Company's responsibility, any uninsued hospital costs are the pasenger's responsibility.

Some on here and some taxi drivers may be happy to accept such risks.; I realise that. But having read this and other threads where the tone is to look for responsibilities with the Operator which can be exploited, but simultaneously to accept no responsibility for planning for being inconvenienced, then I have to advise all passengers to expect no more from our Railway Companies than to convey us to our destinations, and that any further variation to that is likely to be entirely at the passenger's peril, possibly evento the extent of responsibility for the driver's losses, both real and projected, if they were incurred following instruction from the passenger.

It does concern me that there are some on here who like to find opportunities to benefit from the Rail industry's offerings, and who yet fail to understand their own responsibilities; both of which must be engaged before any Contract to travel can even begin to take effect.
 
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34D

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Have you been on the meths again dave?

But no. The moment anything beyond the original Contract occurs, then we're in trouble. A deviation here, an un contracted stop there, an accident off-route. The insurance is void, the Contract is void, the compensation is innapplicable, the losses and damage are beyond the Railway Company's responsibility, any uninsued hospital costs are the pasenger's responsibility.
I don't see anything adverse flowing from a taxi driver dropping someone off in the wrong place. The taxi is of course insured.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Have you been on the meths again dave?



I don't see anything adverse flowing from a taxi driver dropping someone off in the wrong place. The taxi is of course insured.
'Meths'? I was 'writing Risk Assessments' later into the evening than is good for anyone, with customary food and drink that is good for anyone.

You've identified exactly the point I was highlighting - but we apparently disagree. There have been several claims of un-insured journeys by taxi (where taxi refers to Private Hire car) as a result of small deviations from the Conditions of cover.
A properly booked journey from A to B which changes en route following private discussion between driver and passenger is likely to trigger such a deviation. The result is that an Insurance claim is likely to be contested.

Some of these contested claims that I am aware of have been refused.
 

34D

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'Meths'? I was 'writing Risk Assessments' later into the evening than is good for anyone, with customary food and drink that is good for anyone.

You've identified exactly the point I was highlighting - but we apparently disagree. There have been several claims of un-insured journeys by taxi (where taxi refers to Private Hire car) as a result of small deviations from the Conditions of cover.
A properly booked journey from A to B which changes en route following private discussion between driver and passenger is likely to trigger such a deviation. The result is that an Insurance claim is likely to be contested.

Some of these contested claims that I am aware of have been refused.
To be clear, are you suggesting situations where the private hire vehicle and driver have full insurance allowing use as a PHV? Or are you referring to situations where the cars' insurance is inadequate and the passenger has made a claim against the party which booked the vehicle?
 

DaveNewcastle

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I am referring to Private Hire vehicles and their drivers, carrying passengers pre-booked by a Railway Company as their client, with an Operator who accepts and records the booking, and where the booking is to convey a passenger from A to B, and where a subsequent arrangement between the passenger and driver to go instead to C, may find that the journey to C is not insured. The passenger is not the client who pre-booked the journey.

Private Hire Drivers have been successfuly prosecuted for driving without Third Party Insurance as a consequence of breaching the requirement for pre-booking, despite holding cover for Private Hire operations.

As you know, Private Hire differs from Hackney Carriage Licences in that they are not permitted to to pick up passengers (either while travelling a.k.a. 'hailing' or while stationary e.g. at a 'rank'.), only to convey passengers who have pre-booked; their Insurance will only apply to that permitted type operation and not to later changes. The requirement for record keeping will not show the additional arrangement to take the passenger to C and will normally be inspected by the Insurer of a Private Hire driver following a claim.
As Private Hire drivers normally communicate with their control by Private Radio with limited range of coverage (and not by mobile phone or other national network), then during longer journeys, the later arrangement to go to C will not be communicated to control and will therefore not be recorded in the log.

We are straying far from the OP's point of interest and perhaps if this is to be debated further then it could be in another section or even in a taxi forum?
 
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exile

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If the taxi driver stops short of station X there doesn't seem to be a problem as far as I can see. If the passenger wants to make a separate booking from station X to his house then surely that can be negotiated with the driver and logged before arriving at station X. If the passenger needs to go to town Y which is some way off the route to station X but a shorter or similar distance, surely this could be arranged with the staff member booking the vehicle, and if it is actually a longer distance the passenger could pay the difference.
 

142094

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I'll not get into the discussion about taxis going off route, as I have no idea. However a few years back, travelling from Newcastle to a station on the West Highland line, our train was delayed and we missed the connection at Queen Street. Scotrail ordered some taxis to take us to our destination, but we were able to catch the train by Crianlarich. Whether the taxi driver charged Scotrail for a trip to Crianlarich or Fort William I do not know.
 

Deerfold

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It's not uncommon at Leeds if last trains have been missed by a booked connection for the taxis to be booked to home addresses so long as these are not far from the station on your ticket.

However, I've alwasy understood this is just good customer service, not an obligation.
 
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