Conwy Valley Line - Now Reopened

[Kite159]

There's actually an argument for fewer trains (perhaps only a couple running the full branch), a higher frequency north of Betws, and a proper integration with bus services in the area. The potential is massive, the implementation is awful.

Agreed, I guess if you can work out the timetable with having trains passing at North Llanrwst (and find additional rolling stock) you could probably do an hourly service from Llandudno towards Betws with probably every 3rd service extended to Blaenau

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, I guess if you can work out the timetable with having trains passing at North Llanrwst (and find additional rolling stock) you could probably do an hourly service from Llandudno towards Betws with probably every 3rd service extended to Blaenau

That or two-hourly to Betws (single unit) with specified services extending onto the branch to fit commuter/school times (which the present service doesn't) - a bit more like the Cumbrian Coast, though I think there has been a recent frequency increase up there, far more trains appear to go through than used to. Buses could then run in the other hour and from Betws to Blaenau in hours where there is no train.

The trouble with specified extensions is that it mucks with diagrams in an area where almost everything else is "im Takt". It's easier on the Cumbrian Coast because Barrow has a depot.

Allegedly the reason for the X1 cut is that Express weren't getting as much money from the passes once they became valid on the train (a very sensible act by the Council - what's the point in paying people to use a bus that competes with a train you are also paying for?).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That or two-hourly to Betws (single unit) with specified services extending onto the branch to fit commuter/school times (which the present service doesn't) - a bit more like the Cumbrian Coast, though I think there has been a recent frequency increase up there, far more trains appear to go through than used to. Buses could then run in the other hour and from Betws to Blaenau in hours where there is no train.

The trouble with specified extensions is that it mucks with diagrams in an area where almost everything else is "im Takt". It's easier on the Cumbrian Coast because Barrow has a depot.

Allegedly the reason for the X1 cut is that Express weren't getting as much money from the passes once they became valid on the train (a very sensible act by the Council - what's the point in paying people to use a bus that competes with a train you are also paying for?).

LLandudno Junction has a large(sih) train crew depot , so resourcing a shuttle enhancement ought to be easy and fairly efficient. Well worth a study I reckon , and a single 153 ought to be enough for most of the year., though logically a 2 car for flexibility.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Allegedly the reason for the X1 cut is that Express weren't getting as much money from the passes once they became valid on the train (a very sensible act by the Council - what's the point in paying people to use a bus that competes with a train you are also paying for?).

Were there a number of intermediate bus stops on the X1 service, in areas not served by a railway station, that were used by bus passengers?

 

[Kite159]

The 3 intermediate stations on the 'bottom half' of the line, Pont-Y-Pant & Roman Bridge don't really serve a meaningfull purpose (a tiny handful of houses close by, located off little country lanes where replacement buses stopping a fair walk away), with the bus stop for Dolwyddelan being in the village compared to the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were there a number of intermediate bus stops on the X1 service, in areas not served by a railway station, that were used by bus passengers?

Some, yes, though from observation (I've often done the "circular" of down the valley on the train, back up on the bus - the Crimea Pass is beautiful in its desolation, a bit like Woodhead) it's primarily passengers from Blaenau, Betws, Llanrwst and local passengers as it gets near the Junction.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Conwy Valley line has been shut for a little while due to the 70mph winds and rain from the storms already , today it has been announced it will remain shut until at least November 13th with rail replacement buses taking over.

Extensive track damage and damage to the tunnel is to blame.

I think the Conwy valley should have its own permanent team of engineers, there seems to always be plenty of work for them there year round!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does seem so, doesn’t it? Damage to the tunnel is concerning, it’s been there for years so why is it failing now?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It doesn't say what the repairs needed on the tunnel are.

NRE quoting :
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/174578.aspx

Repairs are required on the line between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Llandudno Junction because of damage caused by storms Ophelia and Brian. The line is expected to remain closed until Monday 13 November while repairs are made to a tunnel between these stations.

Coaches operated by Llew Jones Coaches will replace trains between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Llandudno Junction

 

[PHILIPE]

LLandudno Junction has a large(sih) train crew depot , so resourcing a shuttle enhancement ought to be easy and fairly efficient. Well worth a study I reckon , and a single 153 ought to be enough for most of the year., though logically a 2 car for flexibility.

A 153 used to work the Branch in the Winter but was replaced by 150 due to the unreliable performance of a 153

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thankfully. the 2017 tourist season is now at an end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note they have bustituted the whole thing rather than running to Betws after which a taxi would be sufficient. Couldn’t be anything to do with being another unit down?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I note they have bustituted the whole thing rather than running to Betws after which a taxi would be sufficient. Couldn’t be anything to do with being another unit down?

Only bustitued as far as Llandudno Junction the Llandudno Junction - Llandudno and return leg still seems to be a train. Puzzling for the sake of a 6 minute , 3 odd mile drive you would think it would be easier for the bus to do the whole journey. Why stop at the junction?

Surely it would free up a crew by letting the bus replace the whole journey.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Saw this in the Daily Post earlier, worrying stuff... http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conwy-valley-railway-line-tunnel-13812033

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saw this in the Daily Post earlier, worrying stuff... http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conwy-valley-railway-line-tunnel-13812033

Don't think I'd want to be in there at the minute just in case!

The pillar is interesting...didn't know it was there! The tunnel itself is, as well, the rock is supposed to be so solid that it is unlined, which is very rare indeed.

Has the line been undermined elsewhere? If not, why aren't they running to Betws, which is by far the busiest bit of the line (if you could call any of it busy)?

Hopefully none of it comes down, as a proper collapse in the tunnel (quite apart from risking peoples' safety) would almost certainly mean permanent closure south of Betws.

 

[daikilo]

Intriguing photo. Anyone know if the the pillar is actually the end of a brick wall? And why does there appear to be a void to the left of the photo whilst the track goes right?

 

[Welshman]

Intriguing photo. Anyone know if the the pillar is actually the end of a brick wall? And why does there appear to be a void to the left of the photo whilst the track goes right?

Ah - that's where the strategic reserve of steam locomotives is really kept, just in case.
They figured no-one would think of looking there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been through the tunnel enough times (including a few times on Class 101s with the blinds up) and have never noticed that void and brick pillar. I wonder why it's there? Did perhaps a bit too much rock come down at one point when it was being built?

 

[edwin_m]

It must have been put there because someone decided there was a danger of the roof collapsing at the time it was built, and if it is damaged then the same risk exists today. If the rock is softer or more fractured here than elsewhere in the tunnel then it could also explain the existence of the void.

 

[Kite159]

Saw this in the Daily Post earlier, worrying stuff... http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conwy-valley-railway-line-tunnel-13812033

To avoid anybody having to click on a very advert unfriendly website (as is typical for local newspaper websites):

 

[Bletchleyite]

The latter is mildly damp but doesn't look like it on its own would stop the job.

 

[gazthomas]

As someone from Conwy I do fear for this line in the long term as costs must be higher than revenue. The A470 is so much improved now that it is a much more pleasant bus trip than it used to be. I know the line is free for concessionary pass holders but I wonder if the Welsh Assembly Government would look long and hard at the viability of the line when rail policy eventually gets devolved from Westminster. If only a use for all that slate, or a new Nuclear Power station could bring freight back to the line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone from Conwy I do fear for this line in the long term as costs must be higher than revenue. The A470 is so much improved now that it is a much more pleasant bus trip than it used to be. I know the line is free for concessionary pass holders but I wonder if the Welsh Assembly Government would look long and hard at the viability of the line when rail policy eventually gets devolved from Westminster. If only a use for all that slate, or a new Nuclear Power station could bring freight back to the line.

I can't see the whole thing closing unless there's a serious rethink on the benefits of rail subsidy more generally, but I really wouldn't be surprised to see it truncated to Betws and changed to one engine in steam with any crossings[1] automated (which would allow a two-hourly clockface service on the busier part of the line with one unit, a driver and a guard, vastly improving its economics and probably increasing usage significantly).

If there's ever a serious collapse in the tunnel (rather than a repairable one as this time) that will probably prompt such a truncation. There would be no point truncating to one of the intermediates south of Betws because there is genuinely nothing there.

[1] Only one at Tal y Cafn I think. Could be switched to being driver/guard operated like the one at Porthmadog is/was.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

There would be no point truncating to one of the intermediates south of Betws because there is genuinely nothing there.

In the interests of accuracy, Dolwyddelan has a similar settled population to Betws-y-Coed. Tourism and leisure travel create the difference in usage between the two stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the interests of accuracy, Dolwyddelan has a similar settled population to Betws-y-Coed. Tourism and leisure travel create the difference in usage between the two stations.

Indeed, when I looked at a map I had forgotten how small Betws actually is - but as a tourist hub the demand and potential untapped demand is significant. Dolwyddelan probably is small enough to justify a couple of buses a day really.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well , if the tunnel turns out to be a long job - then a quick recast of the resources to give a Bettws -y- Coed shuttle to the coast with a guaranteed bus feeder from BF to BYC would at least keep costs down and give a better service pro-tem.

One does wonder if a Summer only service in any case might be a better option - as some SNCF coastal lines provide.

 

[AndrewE]

Well , if the tunnel turns out to be a long job - then a quick recast of the resources to give a Bettws -y- Coed shuttle to the coast with a guaranteed bus feeder from BF to BYC would at least keep costs down and give a better service pro-tem.

One does wonder if a Summer only service in any case might be a better option - as some SNCF coastal lines provide.

That sounds like an idea worth trying, but my fear would be that the UK obsession with accounting (the narrowest interpretation of "the bottom line") would conclude that a seasonal railway could never be viable as it only generates income for half the year. Never mind that the Inlandsbahn in Sweden is a lot longer, yet runs for a much shorter period. Or that here roads have to be built in holiday areas because of short-term summer congestion, whereas railway lines have been closed for exactly that same reason - only busy in the summer!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well , if the tunnel turns out to be a long job - then a quick recast of the resources to give a Bettws -y- Coed shuttle to the coast with a guaranteed bus feeder from BF to BYC would at least keep costs down and give a better service pro-tem.

One does wonder if a Summer only service in any case might be a better option - as some SNCF coastal lines provide.

Overall the best thing would be to build a network for Snowdonia including bus and rail, with a single ticketing system, connecting at Betws. Build on the Snowdon Sherpa which is a good idea but relatively poorly implemented.

If a unit and crew are available it wouldn't be a terrible idea to try out a 2 hourly timetable "im Takt" from Llandudno to Betws, promoted heavily, to see how well it's used while the southern section is closed. A taxi shuttle would probably do for the rest of the line...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That sounds like an idea worth trying, but my fear would be that the UK obsession with accounting (the narrowest interpretation of "the bottom line") would conclude that a seasonal railway could never be viable as it only generates income for half the year. Never mind that the Inlandsbahn in Sweden is a lot longer, yet runs for a much shorter period. Or that here roads have to be built in holiday areas because of short-term summer congestion, whereas railway lines have been closed for exactly that same reason - only busy in the summer!

Well even in Wales - the Vale of Rheidol was summer only from (I think) 1931 and is now thriving ....things can be protected , if the will is there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had a quick go at a timetable...

If you base it around odd:45 from Llandudno (for retail commuters finishing at 1730) you get even:45 from Betws, which would work for commuters both ways. Journey time from Betws to Llandudno is 48 minutes.

So you could have:
dep Betws 0645, 0845, 1045, 1245, 1445, 1645, 1845 and 2045
dep Llandudno Jn (edit: 0545), 0745, 0945, 1145, 1345, 1545, 1745, 1945

Maybe add a 2145/2245 on a Friday and Saturday evening, and on a Sunday trim the first and last train.

Arrival in Llandudno at 0730 for work is a *bit* early, but I think it's the most workable, and I think people would be less bothered about that than not getting home until much later if you did even hours from Llandudno. I genuinely think that kind of timetable would significantly up usage

Those timings would also work for a commute to Chester (using the 0645 out and the 1945 back - a long day but no worse than any Brighton commuter does!)