• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Corbyn sacks former leadership rival over Brexit claims

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
I'd consider myself patriotic, proud of my country and (mostly) proud of my heritage, but also something of a 'remoaner'. I don't doubt that we can survive outside of the EU, but needless to say that I don't think we will ever so as well outside the EU as we would have done if we had remained a member (unless the EU collapses perhaps) - it's just the nature of the world changing.

That’s a pragmatic viewpoint and a fair one.

Although it depends what you think of as “doing well”.

Personally I’d happily be poorer and more democratic. Economic growth isn’t the only metric to measure the success or otherwise of a country. I also don’t accept that leaving the EU necessarily means we will be less economically well off overall.

Patriotism is about love for your country and doing what you think is best for it, and not about looking to the past and singing 'Rule Britannia'

I agree and that’s not what I want to do either. I find it a little strange when someone evidently identifies as an EU citizen over and above their national identity and it makes me question their motives a little.

To accuse people of being unpatriotic because they don't have the same view as you or voted to remain is in some respects quite offensive

No issue with someone voting remain (my own mother did, for what it’s worth). I do have an issue with someone disingenuously stating that the EU is as democratic as Westminster. I also have an issue with remainers trying to reverse or play down the result of the 2016 referendum. That is something I find very offensive indeed.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
That’s a pragmatic viewpoint and a fair one.

Although it depends what you think of as “doing well”.

Personally I’d happily be poorer and more democratic. Economic growth isn’t the only metric to measure the success or otherwise of a country. I also don’t accept that leaving the EU necessarily means we will be less economically well off overall.

Fair enough, but I'll disagree about the democratic/well off argument. Given the way that the Tories are perennially going on about the need for a strong economy (and their seeming strong grip on power) I'd rather be better off with well funded services than feeling as if I have greater control over the direction of the country. After all democracy and leading a county tends to be about compromise - there is no such thing as a perfect system and seeing as I don't feel that there is that much difference between them the two systems (both flawed in different ways but it doesn't seem to have much impact on me day to day) I'd rather the one that'll make the country better off. After all, having more control is pointless is there is nothing to control!

I agree and that’s not what I want to do either. I find it a little strange when someone evidently identifies as an EU citizen over and above their national identity and it makes me question their motives a little.



No issue with someone voting remain (my own mother did, for what it’s worth). I have an issue with someone disingenuously stating that the EU is as democratic as Westminster. I also have an issue with remainers trying to reverse or play down the result of the 2016 referendum. That is something I find very offensive indeed.

Identifying as an EU citizen over a national citizen does seem a little odd now, but no doubt after a few decades it'd be moving towards the norm, and there wouldn't necessarily be anything wrong with that. I'd also wonder what you mean about questioning their motives, and why that'd necessarily be a bad thing?

As for the EU/UKParl democracy question, like I said earlier I think they're both not great, and it depends how much value you place on your ability to influence them. I'm not particularly bothered by how much influence I have (having been on the loosing side of all elections I've either voted in or been interested in) and so like I mentioned above, so long as it 'works' I'm happy enough with it. Perhaps as I get older my views will change, but maybe not.

And as for that referendum, it was only advisory, and was such a close margin that to make such a major change to the country on it does make me a bit uncomfortable, especially given the ambiguity and misinformation around the campaigns. In my opinion, Cameron should have taken that result back to the EU and used it to push for more reform, given that there was still something of a eurosceptic opinion across other EU states rather than resigning and starting of this whole sorry process. Obviously you refer to the 1970s referendundum to take us in but two wrongs don't make a right. Point taken about it being offensive, but to draw a bad analogy, trying to prevent a loved one from doing something that is in your view harmful and daft is the only sensible course of action. Obviously since article 50 has been triggered there really isn't much left that can be done, other than watch on with a mix of terror and mild amusement. I'd love to be proved wrong about the success (or lack thereof) of Brexit but I've got a niggling feeling that it won't.
 

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
Identifying as an EU citizen over a national citizen does seem a little odd now, but no doubt after a few decades it'd be moving towards the norm, and there wouldn't necessarily be anything wrong with that. I'd also wonder what you mean about questioning their motives, and why that'd necessarily be a bad thing?

The EU originated as a mutually beneficial trading agreement. Unfortunately it has become a vanity project which has suffered a great deal of mission creep. It apparently regards itself as supreme overlord of its “member states” and has scant regard for democracy or national identity.

In reality it’s a motley collection of countries which have little shared history and little in common. They are also economically very different. Trying to unite all of them under one identity is futile, just as trying to unite them economically has failed - the Euro has been a disaster for Greece and Spain which have been unable to devalue their currencies or control their own interest rates.

I don’t consider it remotely desirable to be a “citizen of the EU”. It was never intended to be a nation state in its own right, so why is it doing its best to become one? I suspect it’s largely because the unelected and unaccountable beureaucrats in Brussels want to line their own pockets and empire build.

These faceless individuals do not have the best interests of this country at heart and are not accountable to us as an electorate. They are not open to scrutiny in the same way as Westminster is, for all its flaws, yet have more and more influence over our daily lives. That is something I find deeply sinister.

And as for that referendum, it was only advisory,

But with all due respect can you imagine the outcry if remain had won the referendum and leavers wanted the government to ignore the result and leave the EU anyway? The referendum was legally only advisory, yes, but nobody voting in that referendum believed the result wouldn’t be acted upon.

As for the EU/UKParl democracy question, like I said earlier I think they're both not great, and it depends how much value you place on your ability to influence them. I'm not particularly bothered by how much influence I have (having been on the loosing side of all elections I've either voted in or been interested in) and so like I mentioned above, so long as it 'works' I'm happy enough with it. Perhaps as I get older my views will change, but maybe not.

This is probably a point where we need to agree to disagree. In the end it is a value judgement we all have to make as individuals.

I place a lot of value on living in a self determining democracy. I also lament the fact that a lot of people today apparently take that for granted. It’s something that many people around the world would dearly love to see. We are lucky to be living in a (relatively) peaceful time but perhaps our generation has forgotten the sacrifices that had to be made in the past to protect our freedom.

In my opinion, Cameron should have taken that result back to the EU and used it to push for more reform, given that there was still something of a eurosceptic opinion across other EU states rather than resigning and starting of this whole sorry process.

One of the biggest problems with the EU is that it is too arrogant and intransigent to change. Cameron made a great song and dance about repatriating powers from the EU and singularly failed to do so. That was one of the things that sealed my leave vote.

The other thing I think people overlook is that the EU is in real trouble at the moment. Brexit has taken some of the focus off its other problems. Southern Europe is in a mess, extremist political parties are on the rise, I think it’s far from certain that the EU will continue in its present form.

I'd love to be proved wrong about the success (or lack thereof) of Brexit but I've got a niggling feeling that it won't.

I hope you are proved wrong as well. That’s something we can definitely agree on. ;)
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,523
Location
The home of the concrete cow
I agree and that’s not what I want to do either. I find it a little strange when someone evidently identifies as an EU citizen over and above their national identity and it makes me question their motives a little.
I assume that this is aimed at me, seeing as I brought it up.
Where have I identified as an EU citizen over and above my national identity? I am a British citizen and an EU citizen. Soon I will be a British citizen. That makes me 'worse off' (for want of a better phrase) because I have two things and I will soon only have one. Whether that one thing is better or worse than the other thing is immaterial, it is simply less.
I do have an issue with someone disingenuously stating that the EU is as democratic as Westminster.
Personally I don't see that your arguments add up, Edwin_M also gave a very good summary of why.
I also have an issue with remainers trying to reverse or play down the result of the 2016 referendum. That is something I find very offensive indeed.
Who is playing it down? It's happened. We've got to get on with it, whether we like it or not. I think it a bad thing for the country, a bad thing for Europe and especially for the population. But I can't do anything about it now, except voice my personal opinions as to why it will be so damaging.
Saying 'I told you so' will give me no pleasure whatsoever, because I will be just as much in the cart as everyone else.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
But with all due respect can you imagine the outcry if remain had won the referendum and leavers wanted the government to ignore the result and leave the EU anyway? The referendum was legally only advisory, yes, but nobody voting in that referendum believed the result wouldn’t be acted upon.

Perhaps, but if it was a 52/48 in favour of remain, as Farage said itd be unfinished business and I'd agree. 52/48 is not a ringing endorsement of anythng other than showing the country is divided.

One of the biggest problems with the EU is that it is too arrogant and intransigent to change. Cameron made a great song and dance about repatriating powers from the EU and singularly failed to do so. That was one of the things that sealed my leave vote.

The other thing I think people overlook is that the EU is in real trouble at the moment. Brexit has taken some of the focus off its other problems. Southern Europe is in a mess, extremist political parties are on the rise, I think it’s far from certain that the EU will continue in its present form.

Sort of related to the above point as well, but if it wasn't the UK that decided out, then I'm sure someone else would have, be that France, the Netherlands, Germany or Austria. There were a wave of prominently eurosceptic parties and politicians around that time, as well as a view that there may be some sort of domino effect in the offing. A wave of similarly divisive referendums scores the EU might have kicked the EU into gear, particularly if we (the UK) had been able to chair the commission (or whatever it was) and allowed us to set the agenda for a year.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
One of the saddest things about the EU debate is that it has highlighted how little patriotism and pride many brits apparently have in their own country and heritage. Many seem to believe we can’t survive on our own any longer, and need to remain a “member state” with Brussels pulling the strings.
The level of dishonesty and general attitude of some of the Brexiters makes me frankly ashamed to be sharing a country with them.
As a proud brexiter I would invite you to emigrate, continue to live in your precious EU and see how much it cares for you as a “citizen“.
Due to Brexit we probably won't have that option in the future.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top