Cornish or Thames Valley branches could be converted to light rail?

[cslusarc]

Moderator note: split from

Class 175 to GWR

So saw on rail express that 175s are to head to GWR suggesting 2025 entry to service? Quoted important sections GREAT Western Railway is set to take a fleet of 11 two-car and 16 three-car Class 175 diesel multiple units for use in the West of England. The fleet (Nos. 175001-011, 175101-116)...

www.railforums.co.uk

Are any Cornish or Thames Valley branch lines are ripe for conversion to Tramway/Light Rail Technology?

 

[I'm here now]

Moderator note: split from

Class 175 to GWR

So saw on rail express that 175s are to head to GWR suggesting 2025 entry to service? Quoted important sections GREAT Western Railway is set to take a fleet of 11 two-car and 16 three-car Class 175 diesel multiple units for use in the West of England. The fleet (Nos. 175001-011, 175101-116)...

www.railforums.co.uk

Are any Cornish or Thames Valley branch lines are ripe for conversion to Tramway/Light Rail Technology?

St Ives - it’s slow enough!

 

[Mgameing123]

Moderator note: split from

Class 175 to GWR

So saw on rail express that 175s are to head to GWR suggesting 2025 entry to service? Quoted important sections GREAT Western Railway is set to take a fleet of 11 two-car and 16 three-car Class 175 diesel multiple units for use in the West of England. The fleet (Nos. 175001-011, 175101-116)...

www.railforums.co.uk

Are any Cornish or Thames Valley branch lines are ripe for conversion to Tramway/Light Rail Technology?

I wouldn’t recommend light rail but it is possible. I’d rather focus on getting High Wycombe to Bourne End reopened as heavy rail to allow more freight and better passenger connections.

 

[edwin_m]

What would be the benefit? Light rail vehicles are generally more expensive per seat than trains, and there is no obvious advantage to having a vehicle on these branches that can run on the street. Also, if the branch vehicle couldn't run on the main line, each branch would need some sort of maintenance facility.

 

[The Planner]

I wouldn’t recommend light rail but it is possible. I’d rather focus on getting High Wycombe to Bourne End reopened as heavy rail to allow more freight and better passenger connections.

What freight use does the Bourne End branch have? The Chiltern line is basically useless for freight.

 

[Mgameing123]

What freight use does the Bourne End branch have? The Chiltern line is basically useless for freight.

The Calvert freight trains and a potential diversion of the Acton freight trains via the New North Mainline.

 

[The Planner]

The Calvert freight trains and a potential diversion of the Acton freight trains via the New North Mainline.

Not enough of them to even make a dent, and the fact you would have to find a path on the GW reliefs which would be nigh on impossible.

 

[Mgameing123]

Not enough of them to even make a dent, and the fact you would have to find a path on the GW reliefs which would be nigh on impossible.

The current Acton freight trains already steal alot of capacity. By moving them to the New North Mainline you will be able the frequency of the Elizabeth Line.

 

[The Planner]

The current Acton freight trains already steal alot of capacity. By moving them to the New North Mainline you will be able the frequency of the Elizabeth Line.

Which ones, the Mendips? Any Acton trains towards the Chilterns go via Acton Canal Wharf and Neasden. Everything else currently is HS2 aggregate related which will cease in 2-3 years.

 

[Mgameing123]

Which ones, the Mendips? Any Acton trains towards the Chilterns go via Acton Canal Wharf and Neasden. Everything else currently is HS2 aggregate related which will cease in 2-3 years.

I don't think you understand. Its more the the freight trains that head in the Reading direction. Instead of going via the GWML and taking up capacity on the Elizabeth Line. they could be redirected onto the New North Mainline then the Chiltern line until around Loudwater and onto the Wycombe Railway.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Instead of going via the GWML and taking up capacity on the Elizabeth Line. they could be redirected onto the New North Mainline then the Chiltern line until around Loudwater and onto the Wycombe Railway.

There's a lot of development along the old route of the Wycombe Railway between Bourne End and High Wycombe. But even if it was rebuilt, it's still facing the wrong way at High Wycombe. For that matter the former junction to the New North at Old Oak Common is the Paddington side of Acton yard.

 

[mrcheek]

I suspect any future light rail conversions will wait and see how well it works on the Cardiff Valley lines.

So when that turns out to be an absolute disaster, the idea of tram-trains, and light rail conversion will be abandoned for good....

 

[MarkyT]

What would be the benefit? Light rail vehicles are generally more expensive per seat than trains, and there is no obvious advantage to having a vehicle on these branches that can run on the street. Also, if the branch vehicle couldn't run on the main line, each branch would need some sort of maintenance facility.

I wonder if the same price metric applies for the latest fleets of tram-trains in Cardiff and light metro units for T&W which will both interrun with general rail traffic in places (and both, incidentally, have magnetic track brakes. Stadler's new Merseyrail units don't appear to have this feature). A custom lighter vehicle could still have tighter curving and steeper hill-climbing abilities than typical on HR without having to meet street running requirements. That might help save money and destruction in any future extensions built.

 

[daodao]

I suspect any future light rail conversions will wait and see how well it works on the Cardiff Valley lines.

So when that turns out to be an absolute disaster, the idea of tram-trains, and light rail conversion will be abandoned for good....

There is a case for light rail conversion of heavy rail lines where they can be linked into existing light rail networks such as Blackpool, Croydon and Manchester. However, there is no point in converting isolated heavy rail routes such as the Cornish or Thames Valley branch lines to light rail.

 

[MarkyT]

There is a case for light rail conversion of heavy rail lines where they can be linked into existing light rail networks such as Blackpool, Croydon and Manchester. However, there is no point in converting isolated heavy rail routes such as the Cornish or Thames Valley branch lines to light rail.

The boundaries are blurring more now. I agree conversion to isolated LR, with necessarily dedicated servicing and maintenance facilities on each branch is not sensible unless one was to be incorporated into a more extensive new LR network locally, where the depot overhead could be spread more widely. Developing some lighter more agile rolling stock that can still interrun, possibly as part of the branch route from major station to the junction or to access depots could still be worthwhile, especially if some 'lighter' extensions are planned in the future.

 

[edwin_m]

That might help save money and destruction in any future extensions built.

That may be so, but what future extensions are in prospect for the routes that are the subject of this thread?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a case for light rail conversion of heavy rail lines where they can be linked into existing light rail networks such as Blackpool, Croydon and Manchester. However, there is no point in converting isolated heavy rail routes such as the Cornish or Thames Valley branch lines to light rail.

Might any of the branches in question benefit from a short street extension?

 

[daodao]

That may be so, but what future extensions are in prospect for the routes that are the subject of this thread?

Re-opening Bere Alston to Tavistock has been postulated, which would join the existing route to Gunnislake (a Cornish branch line) at Bere Alston.

Might any of the branches in question benefit from a short street extension?

I don't think so.

 

[MarkyT]

That may be so, but what future extensions are in prospect for the routes that are the subject of this thread?

The only one that has come up so far is Bourne End - High Wycombe. Any alternative new route for that would probably require some impressive hill-climbing abilities.

 

[The Planner]

I don't think you understand. Its more the the freight trains that head in the Reading direction. Instead of going via the GWML and taking up capacity on the Elizabeth Line. they could be redirected onto the New North Mainline then the Chiltern line until around Loudwater and onto the Wycombe Railway.

Clearly I don't. Do you mean the connection is put back in at OOC to West Ruislip (which it isn't) then they go up to Princes Risborough to run round (which it isn't long enough for) to go down to Maidenhead and still be facing the wrong way?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think that it is a decent idea to trial perhaps Revolution VLR as a shuttle on the Bere Alston-Gunnislake branch, if the Tavistock extension is built and that branch takes the through trains to Plymouth.
It will test the unit's ability to handle sharp curves and also a live test of the realistic operational costs.

The latter data would be particularly useful if a low-cost solution was sought to reopen other rural branches in the SW to passenger service e.g. Lostwithiel to Fowey or a reopened Chard Jcn to Chard.

 

[zwk500]

I think that it is a decent idea to trial perhaps Revolution VLR as a shuttle on the Bere Alston-Gunnislake branch, if the Tavistock extension is built and that branch takes the through trains to Plymouth.
It will test the unit's ability to handle sharp curves and also a live test of the realistic operational costs.

The latter data would be particularly useful if a low-cost solution was sought to reopen other rural branches in the SW to passenger service e.g. Lostwithiel to Fowey or a reopened Chard Jcn to Chard.

Reopening the Tavistock line to allow a trial to take place on the orphaned section is certainly an 'outside the box' justification.

If you wanted to test the VLR on an isolated line why not Liskaerd to Looe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you wanted to test the VLR on an isolated line why not Liskaerd to Looe?

With it being Coventry based and with the Parry units starting to get very knackered, Stourbridge is the sensible first try, not somewhere down in the Westcountry.

 

[zwk500]

With it being Coventry based and with the Parry units starting to get very knackered, Stourbridge is the sensible first try, not somewhere down in the Westcountry.

Agreed, but this thread is about Cornish or Thames Valley Branches.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Surely Light Rail is for urban/suburban services that are highly populated requiring a frequent service. I cannot see the Cornish branches falling into this category.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, but this thread is about Cornish or Thames Valley Branches.

I know, what I'm saying is that Cornish and Thames Valley branches aren't the right place for that unit, or at least not yet.

Surely Light Rail is for urban/suburban services that are highly populated requiring a frequent service. I cannot see the Cornish branches falling into this category.

It's a cheapo 153, basically. The difference between light and heavy rail is getting very blurred these days.

 

[Ashley Hill]

It's a cheapo 153, basically. The difference between light and heavy rail is getting very blurred these days

I don’t think that variations of a PPM would work in Cornwall.

 

[JLH4AC]

It depends on what you mean by light rail, modern lightweight railcars (Such as Stadler FLIRT, Siemens Desiro, and Stadler GTW.) are often referred to as light rail/hybrid rail in the US such vehicles or remanufactured alternatives such as class 230 would be ideally suited for those branch lines, especially considering that peak demand on some of these lines can justify three two-car class 150 sets being coupled together yet normal demand can barely justify a single two-car class 150 set.

Light metro would be overkill, and demand on these lines is often too great for ultra light vehicles. Tram-trains would only make sense to me if harbour tramways were to be restored as part of seafront redevelopment or street running was used to extend some of the branch lines, otherwise you are ordering vehicles with unneeded features or heavily modifying a design to perform a role that that another existing design can do just as well.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Reopening the Tavistock line to allow a trial to take place on the orphaned section is certainly an 'outside the box' justification.

If you wanted to test the VLR on an isolated line why not Liskaerd to Looe?

Oh, I don't propose reopening it just for that purpose. I just think Bere Alston to Gunnislake would be ideal, and the opportunity to test Revolution VLR there would be a bonus, as well as the many direct benefits reopening Bere Alston/Plymouth to Tavistock will bring.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Oh, I don't propose reopening it just for that purpose. I just think Bere Alston to Gunnislake would be ideal, and the opportunity to test Revolution VLR there would be a bonus, as well as the many direct benefits reopening Bere Alston/Plymouth to Tavistock will bring.

Would a VLR cope with the gradient though. It’s also very slippery between Okeltor and Sandways crossings. At least they don’t have to routinely stop at them anymore.