• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cornwall Pioneers - will other Counties follow...?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,178
This week sees the start of a network of Cornwall County Council subsidised bus routes most (all?) operated by the Go-Ahead Group on an 8 year contract.

What are the pros and cons of this arrangement?

Pros?
Stable network
Route branding
Reputable operator
Better buses with better disabled access
Fares set by Council
Integrated timetables, presumably they connect/coordinate with trains?
Through ticketing?


Cons
Have the County Council paid too much?
Operator profits go to a multi national company rather than local operators
All eggs in one operator basket, leaving independent operators empty handed
Stifles competition
What happens if Go-Ahead can’t make any money out of it, can they hand the keys back like certain rail franchises?

Personally I think the pros outweigh the cons, provided funding remains in place.

What does everyone else think, can you see this model being rolled out in other rural counties? mind you there are some rural counties that spend very little on subsidised buses!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
At one stage a while ago MK Council I believe had all routes tendered to MK Metro (Julian Peddle) who themselves tendered a few out that they couldn't operate themselves.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
This week sees the start of a network of Cornwall County Council subsidised bus routes most (all?) operated by the Go-Ahead Group on an 8 year contract.

What are the pros and cons of this arrangement?

Pros?
Stable network
Route branding
Reputable operator
Better buses with better disabled access
Fares set by Council
Integrated timetables, presumably they connect/coordinate with trains?
Through ticketing?


Cons
Have the County Council paid too much?
Operator profits go to a multi national company rather than local operators
All eggs in one operator basket, leaving independent operators empty handed
Stifles competition
What happens if Go-Ahead can’t make any money out of it, can they hand the keys back like certain rail franchises?

Personally I think the pros outweigh the cons, provided funding remains in place.

What does everyone else think, can you see this model being rolled out in other rural counties? mind you there are some rural counties that spend very little on subsidised buses!

Not certain if that's really quite the picture

The network may be stable but to be honest, the network before was very stable since the demise of Western Greyhound in 2015 and the tidying up exercise of various tenders etc over the next year or so. Arguably, it's been a bit dull whilst FK have got on with improving the marketing and presentation of their fleet. Whilst Go Ahead have won the deal, many of the services are actually run on a partnership basis - Go Ahead acts as the prime contractor so many services are operated by people like OTS, Hopleys, Summercourt (who operated many of them before) so independent operators aren't empty handed.

The branding is only on the supported network so the majority of the passengers are not even affected. First Kernow remain the dominant operator (in terms of passenger numbers) and they're pretty reputable; in fact, they've done a great job over the last three years with new vehicle investment that is unprecedented.

The council have specified the services, with enhancements to some and new routes. However, whilst a number make some sense, a number are genuinely baffling. So you have new routes like the Launceston to Bodmin Parkway service that essentially traverses some largely uninhabited tracts of Bodmin Moor or early morning journeys on Falmouth town services, yet the trunk service from St Ives to Hayle/Camborne (every 30 mins daytime with FK) doesn't have a service after 2000 hrs. It seems to defy common sense. Where is the research that underpins these network changes?

Remember that for most of these services, they were already subsidised prior to this exercise and the council COULD have specified better vehicles etc. It's no panacea and arguably, it misses some of the real issues in terms of promoting bus travel. Some bus priority exists in Truro but otherwise, it's pretty small beer.

I know I'm professionally curmudgeonly. However, my concerns are based in the heady days of the Blair government. They provided a lot of funding via the Rural Bus Challenge (as a way of mollifying rural car users annoyed with fuel duty) for enhanced services. So much was wasted by various county councils with exciting new networks and enhancements for stuff that is not and will never do much but carry fresh air. I fear that this could, in part, be a repeat.
 
Last edited:

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
This week sees the start of a network of Cornwall County Council subsidised bus routes most (all?) operated by the Go-Ahead Group on an 8 year contract.

What are the pros and cons of this arrangement?

Pros?
Stable network
Route branding
Reputable operator
Better buses with better disabled access
Fares set by Council
Integrated timetables, presumably they connect/coordinate with trains?
Through ticketing?


Cons
Have the County Council paid too much?
Operator profits go to a multi national company rather than local operators
All eggs in one operator basket, leaving independent operators empty handed
Stifles competition
What happens if Go-Ahead can’t make any money out of it, can they hand the keys back like certain rail franchises?

Personally I think the pros outweigh the cons, provided funding remains in place.

What does everyone else think, can you see this model being rolled out in other rural counties? mind you there are some rural counties that spend very little on subsidised buses!
The one operator in the county model has been tried before in Dorset and Powys at least.
None of the items you've listed under Pros are connected with this however, they're all available to any county that wants to put the money in (i.e. all of them in Cornwall only effect the contracted/subsidsed network)
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,178
The one operator in the county model has been tried before in Dorset and Powys at least.
None of the items you've listed under Pros are connected with this however, they're all available to any county that wants to put the money in (i.e. all of them in Cornwall only effect the contracted/subsidsed network)
How successful, or otherwise were the one operator models in Dorset and Powys?

How long did the arrangement last and who pulled out first the Council or the operator?
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
How successful, or otherwise were the one operator models in Dorset and Powys?

Dorset was an absolute disaster from the very start. Just Google Damory Coaches. Go South Coast, the owner of Damory, made an absolute pig's ear of the whole thing, to such an extent the council had to sub-contact operators who had lost tenders in just to operate a basic service. The schools services were particularly bad.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Dorset was an absolute disaster from the very start. Just Google Damory Coaches. Go South Coast, the owner of Damory, made an absolute pig's ear of the whole thing, to such an extent the council had to sub-contact operators who had lost tenders in just to operate a basic service. The schools services were particularly bad.

Dorset was a real cock up at the start. Part of it was the amount of work in a short timescale and undoubtedly GSC made mistakes. Alex Carter was made the sacrificial lamb for that one but Dorset CC were equally if not more to blame. However, it largely settled down and the tender ran its course to the end so ultimately the sums did add up. Mind you, when it was retendered in 2017, it reverted to a more conventional tender process.

Powys was arguably a bigger issue. In short, it was won by Veolia in 2007 when they were in their expansionist phase. They won the package and purchased Cross Gates Coaches near Builth as well as using a number of other bases. As with Veolia, they had newish fleet but service quality was not good and soon vehicles looked battered. However, when Veolia decided they'd had enough of burning money, the thing really fell apart. From 2011, they pulled out of various areas and that had some impact on some Powys services on the margins and by 2012, Veolia simply pulled out and all of it was put onto emergency contracts. I'm not quite certain but I think they were on an eight year term with a break clause after 5.

Builth survived as a self contained unit, being bought out by its management so doing the stuff around Builth and Llandod until the end of the contracts in 2015. However, the rest passed to people like NAT, Celtic Travel and Sargeants
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top