Coronavirus and Devolved Power in a Nation State

[Butts]

Has the lack of Central Control helped or hindered the UK's efforts to cope during the current pandemic ?

Personally I would have preferred one hand on the tiller, albeit if the incumbent faltered occasionally.

Could the Westminster Government have suspended the three devolved Administrations and taken direct control by declaring A State of Emergency.

There have been many mixed messages and to much grandstanding at times for my liking, by all four of them.

This is illustrated perfectly by the latest Foreign Travel Fiasco unfurling.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Certainly confuses the message when broadcast on the National news.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think that having a de-centralised system necessarily hinders the response to the pandemic. As an example, Germany's states have had different approaches and this has generally been seen as a success. Similarly Northern Ireland will have a more urgent need to coordinate with the Republic. Obviously here, there are stresses involved in devolution caused by the political aspiration of secession that Germany doesn't have, which might distort some decisions, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be nation/regional level decisions.

 

[nlogax]

Has the lack of Central Control helped or hindered the UK's efforts to cope during the current pandemic ?

Slightly hindered. It's certainly highlighted the powers of devolved parliaments in a way that hasn't previously happened, and there is confusion in the messaging. Boris Johnson broadcasting restrictions from Westminster, only for much of the messaging to be walked back fifteen minutes later in Sturgeon's address from Holyrood for example.

The UK is largely on a single track in terms of direction and intent, but some centrally communicated clarity about what's applicable in each of the home nations wouldn't have gone amiss over the last three months. Johnson doesn't want to proactively acknowledge that what happens beyond English borders is not solely within Westminster's control.

 

[Llanigraham]

I doubt very much that the powers of the devolved nations could have been "suspended" without a great deal of difficulties, both constitutionally and politically.
However, from comments made by friends in both the Scottish and Welsh governments, liaison FROM Westminster could have been better, to the extent of letters, emails and even conferences not replied or attended to by Westminster officials. And both leaders have said that they have not been contacted by Boris for many weeks.

 

[carlberry]

Johnson has confused the message by not acknowledging that he is speaking for England only. As others have said the Northern Ireland changes need to be closer to the changes in the Republic in situations like this instead of trying to match into any other nations. The numerous different rules about number of people/families that can/cannot meet/form bubbles etc is just petty point scoring and just confuses people. I suspect that, overall, it didn't make much difference to controlling the virus however it reduces peoples perception of politicians and increases the potential for friction with the police both with those who are trying it on and those who are genuinely confused.

 

[Butts]

It's starting to remind me of The Civil War with Johnson as The Cavalier and Sturgeon and Drakeford batting for the Puritans !!

Can Boris issue an arrest warrant for the Harridan Sturgeon and have her locked up in the Tower of London until the crisis is over ?

Wheres Edward Plantagenet King of England when you need him, he wouldn't have stood for any of this Welsh and Scottish dissent.

 

[adc82140]

The whole thing begs a question- has Covid irreparably damaged the Union?

 

[317 forever]

Had this Coronavirus occurred in say 1990, I think handling of Pandemics would have remained a Reserved issue. It looks only to be devolved because it was not foreseen at the time of devolution.

Given that devolution occurred following local referenda, it would be undemocratic to centralise the handling of Coronavirus. Admittedly, Nicola Sturgeon has been more careful than Boris Johnson but that's beside the point.

 

[6Gman]

Given that death rates in Scotland and (particularly) Wales have been lower than in Scotland (albeit this may be for other reasons) the residents of those two countries may appreciate the different approaches.

 

[Skymonster]

The whole thing begs a question- has Covid irreparably damaged the Union?

No, sturgeon (especially) and drakeford have irreparably damaged the union. No doubt that suits her agenda.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, sturgeon (especially) and drakeford have irreparably damaged the union. No doubt that suits her agenda.

I don't think Drakeford has damaged much other than his own credibility, to be honest. The trouble for him is that an independent Wales, unlike Scotland, is completely non-viable. Well, unless he wants to create a rural subsistence economy a bit like Albania.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The trouble is, the UK doesn't have a federal system, unlike Germany, Canada and Australia and others.
It's anathema to Westminster, as it was in the other direction while we were in the EU.
And yet devolution seems to mean that critical national decisions can be obstructed by any of the 3 regional governments, even though their powers are limited.
The First Ministers must be greatly cheered by the power they are seen to have over UK policy.

Caution - squabbles between semi-autonomous states and central government destroyed Yugoslavia with much loss of life.

 

[hexagon789]

Has the lack of Central Control helped or hindered the UK's efforts to cope during the current pandemic ?

Personally I would have preferred one hand on the tiller, albeit if the incumbent faltered occasionally.

Could the Westminster Government have suspended the three devolved Administrations and taken direct control by declaring A State of Emergency.

There have been many mixed messages and to much grandstanding at times for my liking, by all four of them.

This is illustrated perfectly by the latest Foreign Travel Fiasco unfurling.

The relevant Acts setting up the devolved administrations make it very clear that Westminster can pass any law on any matter normally devolved without requiring the consent of the devolved administration. So there was nothing stopping Boris taking full control of this other than internal national politics.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

A big issue has been poor reporting by national media where the differences between the 4 nations have not been made clear.
Most of the announcements from the UKGov briefing apply only to England but that is often not made clear by the press or indeed by the Government spokespersons themselves.
eg misleading headlines like "Hooray! pubs to open 4th July" instead of "Hooray! pubs to open 4th July IN ENGLAND" -

As Nlogax has said it has highlighted sharply where many powers (and responsibilities) are now held with devolution but also shown contrasts in the way each administration has approached the issue -eg the difference in the messages, tone of message and the style of presentation is very marked between ScotGov and UKGov overall and very stark when you compare the First Ministers' briefings and statements with the Prime Ministers'

Reading comments from the Hamza Yousaf (ScotGov Cabinet Secretary for Justice)- the blame for the "air bridges" farce seems to sit quite firmly at Westminster.
Issuing information too late or with not enough time for analysis, not consulting properly before going to press, not responding to meeting requests for a week then trying to railroad it on a Friday evening (immediately after the attack in Glasgow).

 

[45107]

A big issue has been poor reporting by national media where the differences between the 4 nations have not been made clear.
Most of the announcements from the UKGov briefing apply only to England but that is often not made clear by the press or indeed by the Government spokespersons themselves.
eg misleading headlines like "Hooray! pubs to open 4th July" instead of "Hooray! pubs to open 4th July IN ENGLAND" -

As Nlogax has said it has highlighted sharply where many powers (and responsibilities) are now held with devolution but also shown contrasts in the way each administration has approached the issue -eg the difference in the messages, tone of message and the style of presentation is very marked between ScotGov and UKGov overall and very stark when you compare the First Ministers' briefings and statements with the Prime Ministers'

Reading comments from the Hamza Yousaf (ScotGov Cabinet Secretary for Justice)- the blame for the "air bridges" farce seems to sit quite firmly at Westminster.
Issuing information too late or with not enough time for analysis, not consulting properly before going to press, not responding to meeting requests for a week then trying to railroad it on a Friday evening (immediately after the attack in Glasgow).

I suspect that there is more truth in this post than the rest of this thread.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Reading comments from the Hamza Yousaf (ScotGov Cabinet Secretary for Justice)- the blame for the "air bridges" farce seems to sit quite firmly at Westminster.
Issuing information too late or with not enough time for analysis, not consulting properly before going to press, not responding to meeting requests for a week then trying to railroad it on a Friday evening (immediately after the attack in Glasgow).

But then, the devolved govs don't have the trouble of negotiating with those pesky foreigners.
Another big difference is that Westminster carries the overall risk/cost of the performance of the economy (or lack of it).
The devolved govs have little financial responsibility beyond spending the money released from Westminster.
That's not to defend Whitehall, No 10 and their antics at all.

 

[Richard Scott]

I don't think Drakeford has damaged much other than his own credibility, to be honest. The trouble for him is that an independent Wales, unlike Scotland, is completely non-viable. Well, unless he wants to create a rural subsistence economy a bit like Albania.

An independent Scotland is viable - doubt it! Many businesses would move south. Any Royal Navy ship building contracts would go straight away for starters. Oil prices have plummeted. Scotland prospering under independence is pure fantasy.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

But then, the devolved govs don't have the trouble of negotiating with those pesky foreigners.
Another big difference is that Westminster carries the overall risk/cost of the performance of the economy (or lack of it).
The devolved govs have little financial responsibility beyond spending the money released from Westminster.
That's not to defend Whitehall, No 10 and their antics at all.

This does show up some of the issues with a partially devolved structure where the competencies of each legislature clash
Border control and immigration are reserved matters (and rather have to be with no internal borders) so that is a UKGov matter. However the quarantine measures are a public health matter and that is a devolved power which puts it under WA and ScotGov purview so there has to be proper dialogue/negotiation/consultation to get a coherent policy (which has clearly failed here)


A point the Cabinet Secretary made earlier and the First Minister followed up is the infection rates are much lower in Scotland than England by a factor of 5 (I think that was mentioned but can't find a transcript of the briefing) so some countries which would be considered low risk to England would be a higher (possibly tipping over to be unacceptable) risk for Scotland (and actually many parts of England which have similarly low rates such as the south west)

 

[Butts]

I don't think Drakeford has damaged much other than his own credibility, to be honest. The trouble for him is that an independent Wales, unlike Scotland, is completely non-viable. Well, unless he wants to create a rural subsistence economy a bit like Albania.

Outside of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea (in the South) it already exists

Funnily enough I'm going to Albania (for the first time) in October , I'll report back if rural Wales has caught up yet.

I wonder if they wear wellingtons in Albania ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Outside of Cardiff, Newport and Swansea (in the South) it already exists

Sort of. Wales to a significant extent hangs off the economies of the North West of England and the West Midlands (and add Bristol to the South). Scotland doesn't really hang off Newcastle and Carlisle.

 

[scotrail158713]

A big issue has been poor reporting by national media where the differences between the 4 nations have not been made clear.
Most of the announcements from the UKGov briefing apply only to England but that is often not made clear by the press or indeed by the Government spokespersons themselves.
eg misleading headlines like "Hooray! pubs to open 4th July" instead of "Hooray! pubs to open 4th July IN ENGLAND" -

This is very true. I’m struggling to keep track of what’s allowed from when as their are so many different dates for different things. It’s not helped by the fact that up here we also get a constant reminder of all the changes down south, which I’m sure doesn’t happen in reverse.

 

[oldman]

The point about devolution is that it does allow different strategies, which in the case of NI and Scotland may be justified, Wales less so.

The Scottish government would like to be able to say that Scotland is Covid-free by mid to late August (with some weasel words about eliminating but not eradicating). This would allow schools to open fairly normally.

This is based on the fact that (apart from the care homes catastrophe) Scotland has been less affected. This can be put down to:

1 Just because - there has been regional variation in many parts of Europe. Southwest England has also been less affected. Don't know why.
2 The lockdown was earlier in the spread of the disease.
3 The brilliance of our First Minister.

I prefer 1 and 2.

So the strategy is slower unlocking - avoid public transport like the plague, shopping made unpleasant with masks, holidays only with self-catering, meals and drinks out if you don't mind sitting in a plastic goldfish bowl.

It may actually work, but if it doesn't, any autumn resurgence will be the fault of the English.

 

[Belperpete]

But then, the devolved govs don't have the trouble of negotiating with those pesky foreigners.

I don't see any need to negotiate the quarantine arrangements with pesky foreigners. You decide which countries have acceptable infection rates, and you put them on the list, full-stop. The list appears to have several countries that won't accept UK nationals at all, or require us to quarantine, yet others seem to have been blocked for doing exactly that. There seems to have been a lot of totally unnecessary politicking about this list. Attempting to blame the Scottish and Welsh governments for delaying the publication when Westminster has clearly not given them adequate time to consider it, is just another example of Boris's incompetence and scapegoating.

I am no fan of further devolution, but watching both Drakeford's and Sturgeon's addresses, and comparing them to Boris, the former are both much more measured and explanatory about exactly what they are doing, whereas Boris as ever just seems to be bowing to whatever public opinion is currently demanding. There have been several occasions during this crisis when I have felt thankful to be in one of the devolved regions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am no fan of further devolution, but watching both Drakeford's and Sturgeon's addresses, and comparing them to Boris, the former are both much more measured and explanatory about exactly what they are doing, whereas Boris as ever just seems to be bowing to whatever public opinion is currently demanding. There have been several occasions during this crisis when I have felt thankful to be in one of the devolved regions.

I don't have an issue with devolution, indeed I am in favour of a fully federal UK with a separate English parliament. However, I do think that this sort of matter needs not to be devolved other than to NI - it makes sense to have a single policy for the single island, as it provides natural borders. Some sort of cross-party committee should have managed it across all three mainland nations, which would probably have given rise to something in between Boris's cack-handed tomfoolery and the excessive restrictions in Wales and Scotland (which fits with the idea that the moderate policy is normally the best one).

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't have an issue with devolution, indeed I am in favour of a fully federal UK with a separate English parliament. However, I do think that this sort of matter needs not to be devolved other than to NI - it makes sense to have a single policy for the single island, as it provides natural borders. Some sort of cross-party committee should have managed it across all three mainland nations, which would probably have given rise to something in between Boris's cack-handed tomfoolery and the excessive restrictions in Wales and Scotland (which fits with the idea that the moderate policy is normally the best one).

Which I understand was suggested and offered, but was refused by guess who!

 

[Belperpete]

I don't have an issue with devolution, indeed I am in favour of a fully federal UK with a separate English parliament. However, I do think that this sort of matter needs not to be devolved other than to NI - it makes sense to have a single policy for the single island, as it provides natural borders. Some sort of cross-party committee should have managed it across all three mainland nations, which would probably have given rise to something in between Boris's cack-handed tomfoolery and the excessive restrictions in Wales and Scotland (which fits with the idea that the moderate policy is normally the best one).

I am not convinced. A committee approach would either have led to Scotland and Wales being rail-roaded into doing what was best for England, or the English objecting to being over-ruled by Welsh and Scottish interests.

While I would like a more federal UK, there is the big problem that one part of the UK (London and the SE), has most of the wealth and the resources. A problem seen in London, where a couple of the boroughs have most of the wealth and resources, and are unwilling to share them.

 

[WestCoast]

Given that death rates in Scotland and (particularly) Wales have been lower than in Scotland (albeit this may be for other reasons) the residents of those two countries may appreciate the different approaches.

Regardless of any agenda by the devolved administration, I would say that reflects my opinion as an English person living in Scotland. Most people I have heard from outside these forums are generally supportive of the more cautious approach taken by ScotGov.

For instance, I really like the approach of some outdoor drinking spaces opening first on Monday and then once the public had their first draught pint of Tennent's or whatever, only then opening indoor spaces with precautions.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't have an issue with devolution, indeed I am in favour of a fully federal UK with a separate English parliament. However, I do think that this sort of matter needs not to be devolved other than to NI - it makes sense to have a single policy for the single island, as it provides natural borders......

Yes potentially in the first months, although I now thought generally the new widsom on Covid-19 is that a local approach is best for containing the virus and that generally down to level of regional administrations.

 

[Huntergreed]

In an ideal world: we would have a situation where each large “island” like Britain is controlled under one government. Using a devolved system on an island like this has inevitably lead to differences in approach. Sturgeon and Drakeford want to be “the one who eliminated the novel coronavirus and saved the population”, although this may be political. Johnson seems to be using a “hammer and dance” approach, which essentially allows the virus to spread through the population whilst stopping any more serious outbreaks from occurring.

On an island like this, these differences in strategy are going to inevitably lead to problems, for instance Sturgeon threatening to close the border and Johnson dismissing this as “absurd”.