Coronavirus: Future of airlines and airports

[Bald Rick]

I doubt it's an anti-EU thing. I voted Remain but I think all countries should close their borders for non-essential travel until this is under reasonable control. Going on holiday abroad just isn't important enough to put it all at risk or even complicate it. Goods transport could and should be switched back to the old approach of just the trailer being shunted onto the ferry and taken off by a local driver at the other end.

Very little international travel is actually necessary. Stuff needs to move, but people don't to any great extent other than as needed to shift the stuff.

I disagree with your view on border closure. If country A and country B have similar levels of the virus, and similar control measures in place, then the risk is no different. Borders are in the main entirely artificial constructs after all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A summer of British holidays would be a good option - get the campsites, hotels etc open. It doesn't strike me that it's a difficult thing to do - I suspect heels are being dragged due to the issue of moving the virus around the country too much, or the risk of the rather lacking ICU facilities in say the Lakes being overwhelmed.

 

[Skymonster]

A summer of British holidays would be a good option - get the campsites, hotels etc open. It doesn't strike me that it's a difficult thing to do - I suspect heels are being dragged due to the issue of moving the virus around the country too much, or the risk of the rather lacking ICU facilities in say the Lakes being overwhelmed. .

Please explain why the risk to the UK from [say] moving the virus from Milton Keynes to Bournemouth and vice versa is lower than moving it from the UK to Portugal?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please explain why the risk to the UK from [say] moving the virus from Milton Keynes to Bournemouth and vice versa is lower than moving it from the UK to Portugal?

It's less complicated keeping track within a country.

FWIW, though, I wouldn't be opposed to some form of testing being used instead of 14 days quarantine.

 

[LAX54]

So the 14 day, stay at home after your holiday has been officially announced, but of course the FO. advice / order is still no International Travel, unless essesntial, so in theory there will be no one allowed to fly anyway. although of course Sea and Rail will be different.
If it's a Government order for 14 days, whereby the person has no say in the matter, will the Employer have to pick up the tab ?

 

[edwin_m]

I disagree with your view on border closure. If country A and country B have similar levels of the virus, and similar control measures in place, then the risk is no different. Borders are in the main entirely artificial constructs after all.

It's less complicated keeping track within a country.

FWIW, though, I wouldn't be opposed to some form of testing being used instead of 14 days quarantine.

Also the contact tracing apps. Every country has their own, so any person moving to another country is likely to be outside the system, unless perhaps they download both apps and declare any alerts coming from their "home" app onto their "away" app.

This doesn't matter if the casualty rate is too high for viable contact tracing or so low that the contact tracers have the time to mop up any oddities like this. But there is probably an intermediate range, that we may be moving into fairly soon, where it makes a difference.

 

[nlogax]

Just had a 'Ready When You Are' email from BA pretty much saying, hey, book a flight, we're back up and running. Shame the UK's rules aren't ready to match BA's enthusiasm.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just had a 'Ready When You Are' email from BA pretty much saying, hey, book a flight, we're back up and running. Shame the UK's rules aren't ready to match BA's enthusiasm.

Easyjet did the same yesterday. Some absolute bargains - end of season weekend in Ibiza less than £100!

 

[Chester1]

So the 14 day, stay at home after your holiday has been officially announced, but of course the FO. advice / order is still no International Travel, unless essesntial, so in theory there will be no one allowed to fly anyway. although of course Sea and Rail will be different.
If it's a Government order for 14 days, whereby the person has no say in the matter, will the Employer have to pick up the tab ?

The clue is in the name. Its Foreign Office Travel Advice not an order. There are various practical issues such advice creates and they have been discussed previously. It absolutely does not mean "no one will be be allowed to fly anyway" - neither in theory or reality. People can and will go abroad on holiday despite the quarantine and travel advice but in greatly reduced numbers.

 

[Ianno87]

The problem is the unilateral approach now being peddled by Patel is non-sensical. The UK has a higher infection rate that almost all of the rest of Europe, so it is not a matter of us importing cases from elsewhere but more a matter of other countries importing cases from us. And yet, many other EU countries seem prepared to welcome UK visitors while we are not prepared to welcome them.

In any case, there has got to be some release from this situation, and holidays abroad are an important component of it. Some contend we are already seeing widespread ignoring of the rules, we have selfish councils trying to stop visitors to spending a day at seaside resorts and beauty spots (while at the same time, as per today in Parliament, appealing for government help as their "season" and income streams have collapsed), and people are losing their holidays. Ordering people about and restricting them won't solve the problem - it will merely result in more widespread disobedience which I reckon will become a much more major problem if this lockdown crap rolls on into the summer.

Agreed - telling an entire country they can't have a non-UK holiday* this year (given that prices for Cornwall etc are likely to go through the roof as a result) is a political ticking time bomb that will finish Boris off.

*Especially if the rest of Europe can.

 

[nlogax]

Agreed - telling an entire country they can't have a non-UK holiday* this year (given that prices for Cornwall etc are likely to go through the roof as a result) is a political ticking time bomb that will finish Boris off.

I don't know.. based on what we've seen so far Johnson seems indestructible. Think 'cockroach in a nuclear winter'.

The government persuading us to holiday in the UK and forcing us to pointlessly quarantine on return from foreign climes, all while airlines dangle special offers left, right and center..makes you want to scream, right? The smelly air of British exceptionalism wafts right through these quarantine rules. So many countries we'd want to visit appear to be in a much healthier part of the Covid curve than we are here.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't know.. based on what we've seen so far Johnson seems indestructible. Think 'cockroach in a nuclear winter'.

The government persuading us to holiday in the UK and forcing us to pointlessly quarantine on return from foreign climes, all while airlines dangle special offers left, right and center..makes you want to scream, right? The smelly air of British exceptionalism wafts right through these quarantine rules. So many countries we'd want to visit appear to be in a much healthier part of the Covid curve than we are here.

I do think a large part of the imposition of Quarantine rules is indeed just Britain trying throw it's weight around with "look, we can still tell everybody else what to do!" Even though we just increasingly look ridiculous in practice.

 

[FQTV]

I do think a large part of the imposition of Quarantine rules is indeed just Britain trying throw it's weight around with "look, we can still tell everybody else what to do!" Even though we just increasingly look ridiculous in practice.

As I said on another thread ten days ago:

I’d suggest that the U.K. quarantine plan is noting more than another political diversionary tactic.

The fact is that U.K. nationals, and those departing from the U.K. are going to be some of the last to be permitted into very many other nations, unless they have residency there.

Why on earth would countries that have weathered the storm, many far more successfully than the U.K., actively risk importing infection again?

The notion of ‘air bridges’ is pure fantasy with regard to the U.K., again probably designed to distract. Many countries are setting them up, but none with the U.K.

The U.K. quarantine plan therefore appears to me to be designed to make it look like it’s the U.K. Government being ‘strong’ and ‘taking back control’, in the hope that folks won’t spot that vast numbers of other countries simply won’t let us in.

France has already reversed the plan (if there ever really was one) to not impose quarantine inbound from the U.K., and Greece is back-pedalling hard on its suggestion that British travellers will be welcome soon.

Australia and New Zealand have semi-officially said that it’ll be October at the earliest before U.K. arrivals are permitted.

Italy might be open to us a little sooner, but it’d have to maintain land border controls to stop us bleeding elsewhere in the Schengen Zone.

There’s no scientific evidence to support quarantine in a highly affected area post-outbreak; the Police have said that they can’t enforce it; the airlines have obviously made it clear that it’ll delay the resumption of their operations to anything like a comprehensive flying programme and as long as the FCO advises against all but essential travel, most holiday insurance won’t provide cover when travelling abroad.

To add to the challenge, for all the notions of ‘staycations’, there is simply not the board, lodging, transport, parking and numerous other service provisions in the U.K. to support a stay at home summer.

The U.K.’s current tourist hotel provision is largely centred on major cities, not coast and country. Unless folks want a fortnight in London or Edinburgh, they’re likely to be bang out of luck.

There aren’t going to be twelve carriage summertime specials to excursion platforms at the big resorts. Whitby will probably still only have two carriage DMUs four times a day.

Many large hotels in coastal locations were long since demolished or turned into flats. Many that remain are aimed at a largely older market, often arriving by coach. They do not have spas and leisure clubs and kids’ entertainment, etc., etc.

Last time I looked, there were only two officially-rated five star hotels on the entire coastline of Great Britain.

Unfortunately, we are being perceived as the sick man of Europe and I think that we’re therefore likely to see even more daft and diversionary proclamations from the U.K. government as the summer goes on.

I’m now even more of the opinion that it’s a political position to try and maintain a particular profile of the electorate’s support.

 

[Chester1]

I do think a large part of the imposition of Quarantine rules is indeed just Britain trying throw it's weight around with "look, we can still tell everybody else what to do!" Even though we just increasingly look ridiculous in practice.

I think there is an element of that as a response to some of the very negative coverage of the UKs situation e.g. sick man of Europe etc. It serves the Tories to highlight that despite our current health and economic problems there are several southern european countries who want British tourists to return in the next few weeks (or more accurately really need money from British tourists). Its slightly odious behaviour but tourism is a buyers market. I think there has been concern that moves by non EU countries by the med to allow British tourists back this summer risk long term market share.

 

[Butts]

Just had a 'Ready When You Are' email from BA pretty much saying, hey, book a flight, we're back up and running. Shame the UK's rules aren't ready to match BA's enthusiasm.

I had an E-Mail offering an upgrade to Club Class on a couple of Flights I've got booked from Inverness to Heathrow on BA this October.

£59 each is not bad as I only paid £20odd each for the bookings.

However knowing "the shoebox sized" Inverness Lounge, unless the service onboard is back to normal I don't think I'll partake.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’m now even more of the opinion that it’s a political position to try and maintain a particular profile of the electorate’s support.

I am totally convinced of it. And like the project those supporters the government seem to be playing for, it is going to cause even more economic damage by strangling business and tourism, whilst giving them a ready made "excuse" for their supporters.

 

[LAX54]

The clue is in the name. Its Foreign Office Travel Advice not an order. There are various practical issues such advice creates and they have been discussed previously. It absolutely does not mean "no one will be be allowed to fly anyway" - neither in theory or reality. People can and will go abroad on holiday despite the quarantine and travel advice but in greatly reduced numbers.

The advice is do not travel, if you did go, you would be pretty stupid ! unless you have no alternative, plus all Holiday Insurance policies have said if the FCO advises do not travel, your policy will NOT cover you, now of course if you are prepared to take the risk......

FCO:
COVID-19 Exceptional Travel Advisory Notice
The Foreign & Commonwealth Office currently advises British nationals against all but essential international travel. This advice is being kept under constant review.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The advice is do not travel, if you did go, you would be pretty stupid ! unless you have no alternative, plus all Holiday Insurance policies have said if the FCO advises do not travel, your policy will NOT cover you, now of course if you are prepared to take the risk......

With EHIC still being in place at the moment, the risk is potentially fairly low provided you're not too fussed about being treated there rather than medically repatriated.

I wouldn't even think of going outside of the EU without cover, though.

 

[LAX54]

With EHIC still being in place at the moment, the risk is potentially fairly low provided you're not too fussed about being treated there rather than medically repatriated.

I wouldn't even think of going outside of the EU without cover, though.

Indeed you would have to rely on the EHIC card, as you you would not have any other cover, one assumes the FCO will amend the advice sooner rather than later !

 

[FQTV]

Basic travel insurance typically covers the following:

Medical emergencies and repatriation

Cancellation

Cutting your holiday short

Baggage claims

Cash lost or stolen

Personal liability

Legal protection cover

End Supplier Failure

More comprehensive policies also include such eventualities as cancellation of component transportation, missed connections, hotel accommodation for travellers accompanying policyholders who are hospitalised etc., etc.

It’s very important to understand what EHIC might cover, and what it definitively does not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm well aware of that. However, most costs you can incur on a trip that aren't related to medical care are at a magnitude that are viably self-insurable. Medical care costs (and related costs, like medical repatriation if you want it) are massive and can easily run into hundreds of thousands or sometimes even millions, and it's those that are mostly covered (or reduced to affordable levels) by EHIC.

What EHIC does is gives you the same access to healthcare facilities as a local with the statutory insurance has.

Which means that in most cases it is viable to take a trip solely on EHIC - and I'd imagine the airlines are hoping so!

 

[SamYeager]

The advice is do not travel, if you did go, you would be pretty stupid ! unless you have no alternative, plus all Holiday Insurance policies have said if the FCO advises do not travel, your policy will NOT cover you, now of course if you are prepared to take the risk......

Frankly this has pretty much been the case for ages. It's not just related to this particular issue. More to the point anyone who goes abroad,even when the travel advice changes, and goes down with Covid-19 won't as a rule be covered by their insurance company as it's classed as a known risk. Presumably those willing to pay a large extra premium will be able to get cover.

 

[FQTV]

I'm well aware of that. However, most costs you can incur on a trip that aren't related to medical care are at a magnitude that are viably self-insurable. Medical care costs (and related costs, like medical repatriation if you want it) are massive and can easily run into hundreds of thousands or sometimes even millions, and it's those that are mostly covered (or reduced to affordable levels) by EHIC.

What EHIC does is gives you the same access to healthcare facilities as a local with the statutory insurance has.

Which means that in most cases it is viable to take a trip solely on EHIC - and I'd imagine the airlines are hoping so!

This has been discussed before. Tour operators will not operate against FCO advice. That means no charter flights. Tour operators also buy significant numbers of summer shorthaul seats on scheduled carriers. Without that business, some routes and/or frequencies are not viable.

Many, many people still travel on the basis of very strict budgeting. They pay for their trips on deposit, payments and balance terms. Or they book the components over a period of time to spread the cost. They use debit cards at best, but often still use cash to make payments at high street travel agents. They tightly budget for their spending money whilst they’re away. They travel with actual foreign currency, often bought in stages each month between booking and travel. They do not consider contingency as part of the calculation. They do not have or regularly use credit cards, or have significant available credit limits if they do. They do not have access to funds to buy a new flight for them and their family members when their flight or route is cancelled.

They are overly represented in the statistics for financial loss during travel, and also for public liability.

Medical cover and the the high headline monetary level of that cover is used as a marketing tool of the insurance industry to leverage conversions and effectively frighten travellers into buying the policy.

The fact is that, in terms of actual claims and payouts, medical cover is not the ‘biggest’ part of travel insurance. By default then, overall, EHIC does not provide anything other than a small fraction of the cover that a travel insurance policy does. Anyone reading this should not be lulled into thinking that it does.

Frankly this has pretty much been the case for ages. It's not just related to this particular issue. More to the point anyone who goes abroad,even when the travel advice changes, and goes down with Covid-19 won't as a rule be covered by their insurance company as it's classed as a known risk. Presumably those willing to pay a large extra premium will be able to get cover.

Actually, this isn’t true. Once the FCO advice is lifted, many (if not most) travel insurance policies will cover policyholders for medical expenses and repatriation who contract Covid-19 whilst travelling, as long as all other conditions of the policy’s inception have been met.

 

[LAX54]

Frankly this has pretty much been the case for ages. It's not just related to this particular issue. More to the point anyone who goes abroad,even when the travel advice changes, and goes down with Covid-19 won't as a rule be covered by their insurance company as it's classed as a known risk. Presumably those willing to pay a large extra premium will be able to get cover.

All the ones I have looked at, do say COVID-19 will not even be considered in any cover, no much how you pay, even current policies (pre-covid) have a 'rider' that lets them off the hook !

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's something two-faced about the quarantine policy.
The cabinet won't have a debate about the logic of it, and even the scientific advisors don't really say they are backing it, it's just "policy".
Just like HMG won't debate the fact that the UK has the highest infection rate in Europe, or why the "PH" and "ONS" statistics are so far out of line.
Is the infection rate c2000/day (PH) or c8000/day (ONS)? It matters.
Plus test & trace is not demonstrably up and running yet (which might replace the quarantine).

Until the FCO allows travel abroad, foreign holidays are impossible, regardless of quarantine.
That will be a very political decision when it comes, as it will highlight the bilateral quarantine policies of the countries concerned.
Meanwhile, airline web sites are largely fictional.
I find Easyjet and other web sites are totally at odds with their PR statements, because they don't want to impede the booking process for cash flow reasons.
They are also very keen to offer re-booking rather than cancellation which is only done at 2 weeks' notice, while all the time they have no intention of operating most of those flights if they are only going to be at 30% capacity over the summer.
So it's a lottery if you book a trip at the moment.

I've had an annual travel insurance policy to cover multiple European trips, normally renewed automatically by direct debit, but I've just had a letter saying that because of Coronavirus I will have to re-apply ab initio - another example of how the industry is making travel harder.

I've generally supported the Coronavirus policies so far, but the government is looking increasingly embattled and trapped inside its own bubble lately.
That's compounded now by the stalemate on the Brexit deal, which threatens more self-imposed economic problems from January.

 

[Skymonster]

...the government is looking increasingly embattled and trapped inside its own bubble lately...

Absolutely. And the Aviation Minister's performance in Parliament yesterday was lamentable. Presumably she had been gagged and ordered only to regurgitate the government's official line, because she completely failed to address any of the challenges posed and her responses were largely "...we are looking at..." or "...we are working on..." rather than pointing to any meaningful developments. I really am beginning to wonder whether Boris is prepared to allow the aviation industry to be thrown under the proverbial bus to improve his green credentials.

The irony of this quarantine though is that it will do as much damage to UK tourism as it will for Brits wanting to travel abroad. I doubt UK residents holidaying in country will make up for all the bigger spending foreign visitors. In fact, one of the MPs for Northumbria is already asking the government for assistance for businesses in the tourism industry because they had a bad winter, now they are looking at a bad summer, and then it will be winter again - effectively three winters in a row - and income in the region is way down (I can't say I have too much sympathy when the recent messages from the area have been demanding UK residents stay away, but that's another story) .

 

[Chester1]

The advice is do not travel, if you did go, you would be pretty stupid ! unless you have no alternative, plus all Holiday Insurance policies have said if the FCO advises do not travel, your policy will NOT cover you, now of course if you are prepared to take the risk......

FCO:
COVID-19 Exceptional Travel Advisory Notice
The Foreign & Commonwealth Office currently advises British nationals against all but essential international travel. This advice is being kept under constant review.

You described it previously as a ban and an order. What you have just posted is not a ban or an order, its an advice that is designed to warn people and create significant practical impediments. It will massively reduce numbers but that is a not a ban!

FQTVs points are valid but they aren't a deal breaker for some holidays:

Medical emergencies and repatriation - go to a country such as Italy that provides free public healthcare through EHIC and refuse to be repatriated until well enough to board an ordinary plane by yourself. If I got life changing injuries etc I would have bigger problems than the cost of a medivac flight

Cancellation - book ticket with reputable solvent airline such as easyjet, book hotel with free cancellation until a day or so before arrival (booking.com has many)

Cutting your holiday short - out of own pocket but its not huge price for a european destination on the mainland where you have a choice of airports. I wouldn't go to Sardinia etc. I have been in this situation and the cost of getting home was less than the excess on my travel insurance (£250).

Baggage claims - carry on luggage only

Cash lost or stolen - minimal cash at any point. I have been pickpocked twice, both times the cost was less than £50 excess for cash or £100 for phone so didn't claim.

Personal liability - fine without this in UK, can do without for a week or two in Italy

Legal protection cover - fine without this in UK, can do without for a week or two in Italy

End Supplier Failure - section 75 for credit card payments. There's something two-faced about the quarantine policy. The cabinet won't have a debate about the logic of it, and even the scientific advisors don't really say they are backing it, it's just "policy". Just like HMG won't debate the fact that the UK has the highest infection rate in Europe, or why the "PH" and "ONS" statistics are so far out of line. Is the infection rate c2000/day (PH) or c8000/day (ONS)? It matters. Plus test & trace is not demonstrably up and running yet (which might replace the quarantine). Until the FCO allows travel abroad, foreign holidays are impossible, regardless of quarantine. That will be a very political decision when it comes, as it will highlight the bilateral quarantine policies of the countries concerned. Meanwhile, airline web sites are largely fictional. I find Easyjet and other web sites are totally at odds with their PR statements, because they don't want to impede the booking process for cash flow reasons. They are also very keen to offer re-booking rather than cancellation which is only done at 2 weeks' notice, while all the time they have no intention of operating most of those flights if they are only going to be at 30% capacity over the summer. So it's a lottery if you book a trip at the moment. I've had an annual travel insurance policy to cover multiple European trips, normally renewed automatically by direct debit, but I've just had a letter saying that because of Coronavirus I will have to re-apply ab initio - another example of how the industry is making travel harder. I've generally supported the Coronavirus policies so far, but the government is looking increasingly embattled and trapped inside its own bubble lately. That's compounded now by the stalemate on the Brexit deal, which threatens more self-imposed economic problems from January. Impossible simply isn't true. Its very difficult this month and probably next month but if you can go at short notice its possible. The flag carriers minimum schedules through the crisis are a fairly reliable option. They are likely to build on them from here. In terms of future travel insurance cover for coronavirus most insurers should offer cover for getting ill because its extremely unlikely and the vast majority of cases don't require hospitalisation. My annual travel insurance provider has said I am covered if I renew. Its coronavirus related disruption that is impossible to get new insurance for. I suspect if the Foreign Office Travel Advice stays in place too long then insurers based in destination countries will start offering insurance to incoming tourists.

 

[LAX54]

You described it previously as a ban and an order. What you have just posted is not a ban or an order, its an advice that is designed to warn people and create significant practical impediments. It will massively reduce numbers but that is a not a ban!

FQTVs points are valid but they aren't a deal breaker for some holidays:

Medical emergencies and repatriation - go to a country such as Italy that provides free public healthcare through EHIC and refuse to be repatriated until well enough to board an ordinary plane by yourself. If I got life changing injuries etc I would have bigger problems than the cost of a medivac flight

Cancellation - book ticket with reputable solvent airline such as easyjet, book hotel with free cancellation until a day or so before arrival (booking.com has many)

Cutting your holiday short - out of own pocket but its not huge price for a european destination on the mainland where you have a choice of airports. I wouldn't go to Sardinia etc. I have been in this situation and the cost of getting home was less than the excess on my travel insurance (£250).

Baggage claims - carry on luggage only

Cash lost or stolen - minimal cash at any point. I have been pickpocked twice, both times the cost was less than £50 excess for cash or £100 for phone so didn't claim.

Personal liability - fine without this in UK, can do without for a week or two in Italy

Legal protection cover - fine without this in UK, can do without for a week or two in Italy

End Supplier Failure - section 75 for credit card payments. Impossible simply isn't true. Its very difficult this month and probably next month but if you can go at short notice its possible. The flag carriers minimum schedules through the crisis are a fairly reliable option. They are likely to build on them from here. In terms of future travel insurance cover for coronavirus most insurers should offer cover for getting ill because its extremely unlikely and the vast majority of cases don't require hospitalisation. My annual travel insurance provider has said I am covered if I renew. Its coronavirus related disruption that is impossible to get new insurance for. I suspect if the Foreign Office Travel Advice stays in place too long then insurers based in destination countries will start offering insurance to incoming tourists.

To most people it will be a ban, unless you HAVE to travel, based on the fact that the FCO say currently advises British nationals against all but essential international travel. and that any Travel Insurance will not cover you !
and if you travel with no insurance, certainly to places like the USA then you are just stupid ! plus of course travel to many International countries are still blocked to UK Citizens.
If the FCO advises not to, then most would adhere to that advice

As you say not 'impossible', but could be very expensive ! yes you can do without personal liabilty, or hope the EHIC helps, but only gives basic cover, as it says on the website, it is NOT a replacement for proper cover, in fact it says: It's important to have both an EHIC and a comprehensive travel insurance policy that includes healthcare in place before you travel. Credit Card, not everyone has those, many pay by debit card or direct debit.
Carry on baggage only, not much use for a decent two week holiday

 

[nlogax]

Quote from another thread re the new quarantine laws;

That isn't idiotic, it's what stopped the virus here on the rock.

What is idiotic is doing it at the end of lockdown, not the start.

This is the point I'm also trying to understand. Why on earth do this now instead of three months ago? (@LAX54, here's my continuation of that conversation )

 

[Domh245]

Why on earth do this now instead of three months ago?

Three months ago, the virus was rampant in the wider population. Introducing quarantine would might have stopped a few cases but given the high number of cases already in the population letting "a few more cases in" won't have had any real impact. Now that the numbers are lower in the population, it is entirely sensible to introduce the measures to prevent cases from being imported. The best time to introduce it would have been right at the start before we imported the cases back from the Italian ski resorts, but it's obviously easy to say that with hindsight. By the time the pandemic was being taken seriously, it was too late for quarantine to be useful