Coronavirus: How scared should we be?

[Bantamzen]

Trouble is, HR departments are already over-stretched at the moment having to deal with all the issues around furloughing, so probably really want to avoid this hassle (with its likelihood of industrial tribunals).

This approach won't continue indefinitely, of course, but while the government advice remains to work at home if you can then it's a tricky one. As soon as that advice is removed, and most people who are willing to come back into the offices have done so, I suspect many companies will be taking a harder line on those who refuse.

People being advised / asked to work from home is fair enough, I'm one of them. So long as businesses can supply them with what they need, undertake the necessary health & safety protocols etc there is no need to change that. However I'm referring to people who refuse to go back into work where they cannot undertake it from home & the employer has undertaken any necessary adjustments. These workers cannot expect to be furloughed until they feel safe, which for some might not be until a vaccine is widely available. That could be months or even years, so they will have decide between overcoming their fears and getting back to work, or handing over their jobs to people that want them.

 

[6862]

It's really sad to see the fear some people are experiencing even just walking along the street. Each morning when I go for a run I pass a middle aged lady (looking like she is going to work) who is always wearing a mask, who either crosses the road or stands with her back to me in a shop doorway as I pass, despite me going into the road to avoid her and being at least 3-4 meters away from her. This morning she crossed a busy main road to avoid me then 5 seconds later crossed back over to avoid another runner. This sort of fear is not natural - we're living through a panic-demic as much as a pandemic!

EDIT: I should make it clear that I am careful when stepping into the road to avoid her, and don't do it as a rule. I do it in her case because she is clearly terrified!

 

[Richard Scott]

Looks like training as a therapist may be a plan. Way things are going then there's going to be some demand (obviously they'll have to wear a mask and be at least 2m away).

 

[Huntergreed]

Looks like training as a therapist may be a plan. Way things are going then there's going to be some demand (obviously they'll have to wear a mask and be at least 2m away).

Indeed! I've stated this before but I think the level of fear and scaremongering the government have used is completely shameful. There's no place in a 21st Century democracy for a government to control their population by deliberately scaring them and using fear to their advantage, it's just wrong. My mental health is currently not great, and I can say exactly the same about many of the people I know in my social circle (we're all under 20 in the 'least risk' group). This constant doom mongering still goes on (Whitty is very good at it) and it needs to stop before we face a big depression, both mentally and economically.

 

[Richard Scott]

Indeed! I've stated this before but I think the level of fear and scaremongering the government have used is completely shameful. There's no place in a 21st Century democracy for a government to control their population by deliberately scaring them and using fear to their advantage, it's just wrong. My mental health is currently not great, and I can say exactly the same about many of the people I know in my social circle (we're all under 20 in the 'least risk' group). This constant doom mongering still goes on (Whitty is very good at it) and it needs to stop before we face a big depression, both mentally and economically.

Think there are a lot of people who's mental health has been compromised, in all honesty probably most of us. I think youngsters have really suffered during these times and many were desperate to get back to school. Neighbours of mine have an 18 year old son and could tell he was really suffering and seemed quite depressed, thankfully he's in a better place now. I'm sure being able to have a bit of a rant on forums like this is actually very beneficial.

 

[bramling]

That's how I'm feeling, I'm keeping away from shops etc. for the time being. In fact, I feel that there is nowhere worth travelling to right now.

I wouldn’t go *quite* that far, but near enough.

Go to town - dirty looks over masks, tense atmospheres in queues, silly one-way systems in shops.

Go for a walk - dagger looks if you have to pass someone in an alley way.

Go to an attraction - have to book, only get a time slot.

Go to a beach - well we know what that’s like!

And now to add to all that, work which was until the last couple of weeks was a refreshingly normal experience, is now a nightmare too, with people seemingly everywhere looking to pick holes in what others are doing. Why isn’t X wearing a mask? It’s terrible Y coughed this morning, he shouldn’t be at work if he’s like that. I saw Z within 2 metres of W earlier, going to report them both. Why is U even in *our* building, going to speak to management to get her banned. Etc etc.

Still, I still have many little jobs to do at home and my garden looks the best it’s ever looked.

Indeed! I've stated this before but I think the level of fear and scaremongering the government have used is completely shameful. There's no place in a 21st Century democracy for a government to control their population by deliberately scaring them and using fear to their advantage, it's just wrong. My mental health is currently not great, and I can say exactly the same about many of the people I know in my social circle (we're all under 20 in the 'least risk' group). This constant doom mongering still goes on (Whitty is very good at it) and it needs to stop before we face a big depression, both mentally and economically.

Yes I completely agree. There’s a difference between vigilance and fear, and there’s clearly people who are now irrationally afraid. I don’t doubt there’s also some who like to play on aspects of being afraid too.

We cannot live like that long or even medium term.

 

[MikeWM]

I wouldn’t go *quite* that far, but near enough.

Go to town - dirty looks over masks, tense atmospheres in queues, silly one-way systems in shops.

Go for a walk - dagger looks if you have to pass someone in an alley way.

Go to an attraction - have to book, only get a time slot.

Go to a beach - well we know what that’s like!

Yep, this is no way to get things restarted.

For example, I went out on Saturday, but yesterday I just decided I couldn't be bothered - either with the hassle of public transport, or anything I may encounter trying to go anywhere at the other end. Nothing at all to do with fear, but rather public life has just become so tedious that sometimes I don't feel up to the hassle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, this is no way to get things restarted.

For example, I went out on Saturday, but yesterday I just decided I couldn't be bothered - either with the hassle of public transport, or anything I may encounter trying to go anywhere at the other end. Nothing at all to do with fear, but rather public life has just become so tedious that sometimes I don't feel up to the hassle.

I wonder if the next epidemic will in fact be of agoraphobia? It is sounding like...

 

[MikeWM]

I wonder if the next epidemic will in fact be of agoraphobia? It is sounding like...

My grandmother was agoraphobic. It's not much of a life I'll certainly avoid that at all costs; my point is more that my social/economic activity is going to be significantly reduced - compared to before - while all this nonsense continues.

And then you get this sort of quality of journalism:

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...o-boost-financial-support-as-job-crisis-looms

...figures showed high streets remained quiet on Saturday despite the easing of lockdown measures in some parts of the country.

Although pubs, restaurants and hairdressers were allowed to open across England for the first time since March, industry data show that visits to town and city centres on Saturday were down by more than half compared with a year ago. In central London, footfall was 75% lower than in 2019.

I can't possibly think why, after half the population have been scared out of their wits, and the other half are fed up with being treated as dirty granny-killers...

 

[Busaholic]

My grandmother was agoraphobic. It's not much of a life I'll certainly avoid that at all costs; my point is more that my social/economic activity is going to be significantly reduced - compared to before - while all this nonsense continues.

And then you get this sort of quality of journalism:

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...o-boost-financial-support-as-job-crisis-looms


I can't possibly think why, after half the population have been scared out of their wits, and the other half are fed up with being treated as dirty granny-killers...

I'm not a Guardian reader, generally speaking, but can't see anything there other than factual, so what's wrong with the quality of it?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can't possibly think why, after half the population have been scared out of their wits, and the other half are fed up with being treated as dirty granny-killers...

The journalism is reporting a fact, there's no "quality" issues.

The reasons for footfall being lower are many: fear of Covid and dislike of the rules are two, but there's also having reduced income due to furlough or wanting to cut costs/save due to fear of a recession. And, most importantly in London, the lack of tourists.

my social/economic activity is going to be significantly reduced - compared to before - while all this nonsense continues.

And others won't step out without the rules being in place, so where does that leave us? You think they're being over-cautious, they think you're being callous. It's a real bind and it's a tough one to unravel.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Interesting viewpoint from Australia. Bloomberg reported that, in Europe, there is little correlation between a nation’s severity of measures and whether it managed to curb excess deaths. The speed of introducing basic measures was key.
Of further interest is a segment comparing the responses of US Governors in Florida and New York, and what happened to their respective local economies... and death rates. Including footage of the Florida governor remonstrating with media hacks and calling them out on their predictions of doom...

 

[bramling]

The journalism is reporting a fact, there's no "quality" issues.

The reasons for footfall being lower are many: fear of Covid and dislike of the rules are two, but there's also having reduced income due to furlough or wanting to cut costs/save due to fear of a recession. And, most importantly in London, the lack of tourists.



And others won't step out without the rules being in place, so where does that leave us? You think they're being over-cautious, they think you're being callous. It's a real bind and it's a tough one to unravel.

That’s where honest and realistic communications from the government are vital. Instead we have Cummings off to Barney for a jolly, and today Boris off on a complete tangent about cabless trains and trying to shift blame for deaths towards care home management.

I can see some major cohesion issues over the next couple of months. Now more than ever we needed a decent government which people trusted and had confidence in - quite simply we don’t have it, and *that* is what we should perhaps be scared about.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm not a Guardian reader, generally speaking, but can't see anything there other than factual, so what's wrong with the quality of it?

Perhaps that wasn't the best example - I'm having a generic moan that the media are finally realising the consequences of their actions (see also the story yesterday about 35,000 extra cancer deaths) as if it were entirely unexpected.

 

[MikeWM]

And others won't step out without the rules being in place, so where does that leave us? You think they're being over-cautious, they think you're being callous. It's a real bind and it's a tough one to unravel.

I agree, but I'd also say it was an entirely predictable consequence of the strategy taken by the Government to try to instill raw fear into the population. Here starts the consequences.

 

[LowLevel]

Personally I've taken to wearing a mask on trains (not my choice anyway), inside shops and I've been for a haircut as well. After weeks of it I hardly even notice anymore. If it might help why not *shrug*. No interest in doing it outside etc though. Most people seem to be getting on with it well enough. At work even a number of our staff who initially were struggling with anxiety issues or whatever have found a solution that works for them, be it a different type of mask, using what they feel to be nice colours etc.

On the other hand, I have been to the pub, had a haircut and been shopping regularly and I've been working in public throughout anyway and feel no more concerned for my safety than normal.

I do feel there is a lot of excess fear but on both sides. For every person that is terrified of leaving their home for being struck down there is another that has convinced themselves that wearing a mask from time to time will lead them to be, within a few years, forced to wear an orange jumpsuit and be referred to by a number. Both are irrational. If there is a chance it will help the situation I am quite happy to wear a mask I can speak and breathe through until things are a bit better and thus I am going about many things basically as normal.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd also say it was an entirely predictable consequence of the strategy taken by the Government to try to instill raw fear into the population.

The government were, and are, largely doing the opposite. The government are quite happy to dismiss it as the "Wuhan flu", and always have been, the problem is the stats don't back it up. They were politically pushed towards lockdown, don't for one second think its what they wanted. And that's why the easing of lockdown isn't trusted.

Now more than ever we needed a decent government which people trusted and had confidence in - quite simply we don’t have it

Rather than any messaging- fear-mongering or otherwise- this is the real issue. Definitely.

This government have trashed any trust they had. If it's not Cummings and Jenrick (twice!) thinking the rules don't apply to them, it's Johnson blaming care homes for Covid and Hancock blaming nurses for using too much PPE.

Without trust, people don't trust the easing of the restrictions. 70% of people think its going too fast. The suspicion is things are being eased to deflect attention; Private Eye's front cover this week is a funny example. And it's not just the public; our Chief Minister referred to the "uncertain situation in the UK" when announcing why our border is staying shut.

 

[MikeWM]

The government were, and are, largely doing the opposite.

Perhaps very early on, but since mid-March they have embarked on a campaign of fear unlike anything seen before. Compare with the reaction (or lack thereof) to the Hong Kong flu of 1968, which was comparable in severity (probably somewhat more severe).

The government are quite happy to dismiss it as the "Wuhan flu", and always have been, the problem is the stats don't back it up.

The stats so far show it to be a bit worse than a bad flu year. If we hadn't made serious errors regarding care homes, it would probably have been about the same as a bad flu year (eg. 1998-9 or 1999-2000).

They were politically pushed towards lockdown, don't for one second think its what they wanted. And that's why the easing of lockdown isn't trusted.

This is why we need better leaders. If they didn't want lockdown and wanted to keep to the 'March 12th' strategy - which in my opinion was the right thing to do - they should have done so.

This government have trashed any trust they had. If it's not Cummings and Jenrick (twice!) thinking the rules don't apply to them, it's Johnson blaming care homes for Covid and Hancock blaming nurses for using too much PPE.

Yes, well that I will agree with!

 

[Huntergreed]

The government were, and are, largely doing the opposite. The government are quite happy to dismiss it as the "Wuhan flu", and always have been, the problem is the stats don't back it up. They were politically pushed towards lockdown, don't for one second think its what they wanted. And that's why the easing of lockdown isn't trusted.

This isn't true. We have documented evidence from a SAGE meeting showing that the government were actually advised to instill more fear in the population as the advisors did not feel like compliance with the 'lockdown' would have been high enough, and they most certainly did do that, with Whitty in particular being very 'doom-laden', something which he continues even still. The government have terrified the population and are continuing to do so, which will I imagine, have very dire economic consequences in the medium to long term.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps that wasn't the best example - I'm having a generic moan that the media are finally realising the consequences of their actions (see also the story yesterday about 35,000 extra cancer deaths) as if it were entirely unexpected.

Ultimately the blame for all this lies with the government. We know outlets like the Daily Express are unhinged, and anyone who doesn't know that deserves all they get (within reason, obviously). I expect better from the government.

 

[MikeWM]

Ultimately the blame for all this lies with the government. We know outlets like the Daily Express are unhinged, and anyone who doesn't know that deserves all they get (within reason, obviously). I expect better from the government.

Oh, I agree entirely. A government should do the right thing, even if it isn't temporarily popular. One that just cleaves to the loudest voices is worthy of little but contempt.

 

[route101]

Got my my first dirty look as i didnt have a mask on yesterday off a lady , i gave a dirty look back.

 

[Busaholic]

Ultimately the blame for all this lies with the government. We know outlets like the Daily Express are unhinged, and anyone who doesn't know that deserves all they get (within reason, obviously). I expect better from the government.

Sad to hear of any job losses, but when the company that owns the Express announced redundancies today chiefly among journalists I had to suspend my disbelief that they had any.

 

[PHILIPE]

With the forecast of good weather returning, all the politicians are saying people will rush to the beaches etc so there will be a huge spike. It didn't happen when we had the last hot spell a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the company that owns the Express announced redundancies today chiefly among journalists

Same company as the Mirror these days, which is crazy when you compare the politics.

We have documented evidence from a SAGE meeting showing that the government were actually advised to instill more fear in the population as the advisors did not feel like compliance with the 'lockdown' would have been high enough, and they most certainly did do that, with Whitty in particular being very 'doom-laden', something which he continues even still.

Whitty is not part of the government, and nor are the advisers in SAGE.

 

[Yew]

Whitty is not part of the government, and nor are the advisers in SAGE.

The duck test would suggest that he's been advising government policy.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Same company as the Mirror these days, which is crazy when you compare the politics.

Ah the Mirror. The newspaper that claimed that Tuesday 26th of May had a lower death toll than today, but didn't explain as to why!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The duck test would suggest that he's been advising government policy.

And that's his job, and it's the Government's job to consider other things like the economy (no doubt also consulting advisors about that) when making the final decision.

 

[Huntergreed]

And that's his job, and it's the Government's job to consider other things like the economy (no doubt also consulting advisors about that) when making the final decision.

And, it’s safe to say I think, they’ve not been doing that

 

[Bletchleyite]

And, it’s safe to say I think, they’ve not been doing that

I think they very much have. Indeed I know they have, because the decision to open the indoor parts of pubs rather than just outdoors was not that of the advisers, I'm told, by my contact inside PHE! Rather, it was done because the economic harm of not doing so would be too great.