Coronavirus: Is this the end of physical cash? Will we go completely electronic?

[david1212]

In the past when I looked at my online bank statements every now and again, it was very predictable: standing orders, direct debit, cash withdrawal and the odd big purchase on a card. Now it’s stuff I can’t even remember buying a week ago like SQRTL PC. £10.79, and a gigantic list of similar stuff. I used contactless six times today. Normally a monthly list of transactions would have no more than twelve items! However, I could easily get used to it!

Likewise. At the moment limited purchases too. When in time more places open up then if not back to cash more transactions. If all by card on a week or so holiday there would be many items - two meals a day, drinks, entry charges, parking etc all at places not used regularly so hard to check and be sure no errors.

 

[najaB]

If all by card on a week or so holiday there would be many items - two meals a day, drinks, entry charges, parking etc all at places not used regularly so hard to check and be sure no errors.

If you're on holiday then use a pre-paid card. Lower risk of fraud since they can only spend what's on the card, and less chance of going a bit "holiday crazy" and regretting it when you get back home.

 

[PG]

Your comment about not being able to pay at all online if the system crashed is totally valid and reasonable. Sometimes there may be an alternative e.g. Paypal rather than directly entering debit or credit card details. Another option might be using a different supplier.
The difference though online is mostly you would not have the product instantaneously anyway. Examples of exceptions are software downloads / activation, pay-per-view or download video and similar.

All though different from having a trolley full of shopping and then not being able to pay as happened when I was in Aldi.

For public transport if the payment system crashed all those without tickets would be stranded if no cash option. Similarly for motoring if not able to buy fuel with cash.

The situation when you were in Aldi - compare it to shopping online, you've selected the things you wish to buy by putting them in your basket/trolley (just as you can at many online retailers) then when you've gone to pay their system has crashed. The two are very similar.

I do accept that for public transport if it was cashless and the payment system crashed then yes you are potentially stranded, barring any discretion being shown by the operator.
However I'd suggest that that might be more likely than you think:

• public transport is a product that (for any specific moment in time) can only be produced once - at the point of consumption
• if the bus or train departs then you can no longer buy (and the operator can't sell) that particular journey opportunity again
• thus when the next available opportunity is to travel (e.g. 5 minutes or 3 hours) is likely to sway the operators decision on whether to permit a passenger to travel without paying

In the example of filling up with fuel, most outlets are pay after filling so its much more hassle for the retailer if they don't accept cash and their system crashes. The fuel is now in your vehicle so from the retailers perspective has already been consumed. Provided that you can leave them your details they don't have the authority to detain you so it is their problem to chase you (in the future) to pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For public transport if the payment system crashed all those without tickets would be stranded if no cash option.

Depends. My experience on buses is that if the ticket machine is broken you just get on for free in most cases.

Similarly for motoring if not able to buy fuel with cash.

That might be more of an issue. But realistically "the payment system" isn't one thing, and you're unlikely to find all garages unable to sell fuel. One garage could be unable to sell fuel for lots of reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're on holiday then use a pre-paid card. Lower risk of fraud since they can only spend what's on the card, and less chance of going a bit "holiday crazy" and regretting it when you get back home.

In any case, "checking for errors" is not really necessary provided you've checked the terminal before touching it/entering the PIN. If it's processed electronically there isn't going to be a miskeyed payment amount, that only happened in the days of manual machines. So the errors you get are only going to be a transaction appearing that shouldn't i.e fraud (and I find discovering that surprisingly easy from reading through quickly, and in any case banks often notice it themselves these days), or one not appearing that should (for which you'd need to reconcile slips). There's the vague possibility of a double transaction but I don't think that's ever happened to me, but again it'd be really obvious because you'd have the same amount twice next to each other.

 

[philjo]

I did get a case of a double transaction last year. In this case it was in Boots. I was told that it had affected all card transactions Made in the branch that day. Boots reversed all of the duplicate transactions the following day so didn’t need to do anything about this myself to reclaim it.
There is the odd transaction where the retailer name on the statement does not match the name of the store or printed receipt. Sometimes when they have hired in card readers for events etc. I had one a few years ago for a payment at a hotel in Leeds - on the statement it showed as a computer repairs company !

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did get a case of a double transaction last year. In this case it was in Boots. I was told that it had affected all card transactions Made in the branch that day. Boots reversed all of the duplicate transactions the following day so didn’t need to do anything about this myself to reclaim it.
There is the odd transaction where the retailer name on the statement does not match the name of the store or printed receipt. Sometimes when they have hired in card readers for events etc. I had one a few years ago for a payment at a hotel in Leeds - on the statement it showed as a computer repairs company !

I find those really stand out so I naturally investigate them.

 

[Dai Corner]

In the past when I looked at my online bank statements every now and again, it was very predictable: standing orders, direct debit, cash withdrawal and the odd big purchase on a card. Now it’s stuff I can’t even remember buying a week ago like SQRTL PC. £10.79, and a gigantic list of similar stuff. I used contactless six times today. Normally a monthly list of transactions would have no more than twelve items! However, I could easily get used to it!

If you use Google Pay on your smartphone you can view a list of transactions including the retailer's name and address and a map showing their location. No more figuring out abbreviations like 'SQRTL PC'. I assume Apple Pay is similar.

 

[Tom B]

The situation when you were in Aldi - compare it to shopping online, you've selected the things you wish to buy by putting them in your basket/trolley (just as you can at many online retailers) then when you've gone to pay their system has crashed. The two are very similar.

I do accept that for public transport if it was cashless and the payment system crashed then yes you are potentially stranded, barring any discretion being shown by the operator.
However I'd suggest that that might be more likely than you think:

• public transport is a product that (for any specific moment in time) can only be produced once - at the point of consumption
• if the bus or train departs then you can no longer buy (and the operator can't sell) that particular journey opportunity again
• thus when the next available opportunity is to travel (e.g. 5 minutes or 3 hours) is likely to sway the operators decision on whether to permit a passenger to travel without paying

In the example of filling up with fuel, most outlets are pay after filling so its much more hassle for the retailer if they don't accept cash and their system crashes. The fuel is now in your vehicle so from the retailers perspective has already been consumed. Provided that you can leave them your details they don't have the authority to detain you so it is their problem to chase you (in the future) to pay.

When there have been widespread payment system failures, free travel has been allowed; whether this would happen if one bank system failed is another matter, probably for the discretion of the individual bus driver/conductor.

The comparison with a motorist at a PFS is different; each vehicle has unique plates attached which can be easily traced via DVLC. (albeit that it is not that difficult to go down to a carparts shop and get false plates made up if one were really determined)

 

[underbank]

When there have been widespread payment system failures, free travel has been allowed; whether this would happen if one bank system failed is another matter, probably for the discretion of the individual bus driver/conductor.

Well that didn't happen in our city which was badly hit by Storm Desmond. People were literally walking the streets stranded because they couldn't get on public transport nor taxis who were all cash only, and then couldn't even book into hotels etc., due to the power cuts and mobile phone/landline outage. Thankfully a few pubs stayed open to provide shelter/food on a free of charge basis for those stranded away from home. It really highlighted how vulnerable we are when the power/telecoms goes down if you don't have cash!

 

[PG]

When there have been widespread payment system failures, free travel has been allowed; whether this would happen if one bank system failed is another matter, probably for the discretion of the individual bus driver/conductor.

I was in that situation a couple of years ago, shortly after the local bus company had introduced contactless payment facilities. The driver requested cash (which I didn't have) so I tried a card from a different bank which fortunately worked.
Otherwise it would have been interesting since I was in a town so had access to a cash machine just not near the bus stop so would have had an hour wait for the next bus.
I'd hope that if I'd been boarding at a rural location travel would have been permitted, at least to some place with a cash machine if not to my intended destination.

 

[Adsy125]

My smallest card payment (for an actual product and therefore excluding the couple of times I have put a penny through a machine to test it was working) was 10p

I've had 7p for an actual product!

 

[PG]

I've had 7p for an actual product!

Go on then, spill the beans, what did your 7p get you?
My guess would be a single plastic tyre valve dust cap!

 

[Adsy125]

Go on then, spill the beans, what did your 7p get you?
My guess would be a single plastic tyre valve dust cap!

Something which was very heavily reduced! Think it may have been a garlic flatbread.

 

[Qwerty133]

There is the odd transaction where the retailer name on the statement does not match the name of the store or printed receipt. Sometimes when they have hired in card readers for events etc. I had one a few years ago for a payment at a hotel in Leeds - on the statement it showed as a computer repairs company !

The student's union at my university was absolutely terrible at keeping the right card machine attached to the right outlet. Almost every single transaction during my time there came up with the wrong name on the card reciept.

 

[Bald Rick]

Something which was very heavily reduced! Think it may have been a garlic flatbread.

Not wanting to showboat, but I have done a 3p contactless transaction. A few years ago I was using the contents of the ‘change jar’ in our local Tesco to buy lunch, by putting a couple of quid’s worth of small change in the machine. On one occasion I was 3p short, so had to pay the balance with the card!

 

[ComUtoR]

Went out last night for a late night tipple.

The guy in front bought some cigs and tapped his card. All good so far, social distancing no cash payments etc etc. Then I witness the inevitable. He tapped his pocket and went "F!"£"!$ forgot a lighter" He asked to buy a lighter on his card but was refused. A quick, and thankfully short discussion and the shop guy let him tap the card.

Shops that usually had minimum payments for card etc are having to swallow horrendous card charges. It's Ok in the supermarket as you can tap whatever amount you want and the till person won't even blink. To push towards a cashless society, banking charges really need to come down.

 

[Hadders]

Agree about banking charges needing to come down but processing cash isn’t free.

There’s cash loss in the shop, then the cost of counting it, securing it, and depositing it.

It’s not all free.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree about banking charges needing to come down but processing cash isn’t free.

There’s cash loss in the shop, then the cost of counting it, securing it, and depositing it.

It’s not all free.

The difficulty is that the costs of cash apply pretty much in full unless you completely stop accepting it. You still need to go to the bank (or have a cash courier do it) for £10 as much as you do £1000.

 

[CrispyUK]

The difficulty is that the costs of cash apply pretty much in full unless you completely stop accepting it. You still need to go to the bank (or have a cash courier do it) for £10 as much as you do £1000.

But if you’ve only taken £10 cash in a week, it will probably just sit in the till as part of your cash float and there’s no desperate rush to get it to the bank. If you’re taking thousands of pounds in cash, you’ll want to regularly bank it to get it off the premises, and available to pay suppliers/staff/etc.

Additionally insurance premiums may be reduced if you only need to cover the risk of a small amount of cash on the premises, compared to what could be thousands of pounds if everything was cash sales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you’ve only taken £10 cash in a week, it will probably just sit in the till as part of your cash float and there’s no desperate rush to get it to the bank. If you’re taking thousands of pounds in cash, you’ll want to regularly bank it to get it off the premises, and available to pay suppliers/staff/etc.

OK, I was maybe exaggerating. £500 vs, £5000 may be a better comparison.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I visited Whitby last summer. Even the public toilets accepted contactless payment.

Ey oop!
Pay as you go s’arrived...

 

[Bald Rick]

Ey oop!
Pay as you go s’arrived...

Swipe before you wipe

 

[Bald Rick]

Shops that usually had minimum payments for card etc are having to swallow horrendous card charges

Charges for debit cards are typically 0.2% + 2p. Sometimes less. I wouldn’t say that’s horrendous.

 

[PG]

Charges for debit cards are typically 0.2% + 2p. Sometimes less. I wouldn’t say that’s horrendous.

Seems acceptable, depending if there's a minimum amount charged which I assume is why some retailers have a minimum transaction amount for non-cash payments.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems acceptable, depending if there's a minimum amount charged which I assume is why some retailers have a minimum transaction amount for non-cash payments.

There isn’t to my knowledge. The charges are higher for credit cards though, and retailers with minimum charges seem unable / unwilling to differentiate (or perhaps its difficult to tell what isa credit card and what is a debit card).

 

[underbank]

Agree about banking charges needing to come down but processing cash isn’t free.

There’s cash loss in the shop, then the cost of counting it, securing it, and depositing it.

It’s not all free.

For a small owner-operated shop, it's as close to free as you can get. The owner cashing up the till at the end of the day costs him nothing. Paying some of his staff/suppliers in cash costs him nothing. Depending on your bank, depositing cash can cost nothing. Cash loss can be minimised/zeroised by using the till properly and taking reasonable precautions to prevent staff theft. For a lot of smaller, owner-managed shops, processing cash is as close to free as you can get.

Obviously different if you're Tesco as you'll probably employ staff in each store to specifically to count, control, bank, reconcile, etc. or pay existing admin staff more hours to do it.

 

[BC]

There isn’t to my knowledge. The charges are higher for credit cards though, and retailers with minimum charges seem unable / unwilling to differentiate (or perhaps its difficult to tell what isa credit card and what is a debit card).

That would be because they are not allowed to differentiate and make surcharges for a credit card any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be because they are not allowed to differentiate and make surcharges for a credit card any more.

Which is actually a bit annoying, as I'd rather pay a small fee commensurate with the cost for the convenience of being able to give up cash entirely.

The big problem was that such fees were often not commensurate with the cost plus a reasonable profit margin (say 10%), but well in excess of it, c.f. Ryanair.

 

[BC]

Which is actually a bit annoying, as I'd rather pay a small fee commensurate with the cost for the convenience of being able to give up cash entirely.

The big problem was that such fees were often not commensurate with the cost plus a reasonable profit margin (say 10%), but well in excess of it, c.f. Ryanair.

I'd rather actually just not have people who dont carry cash not be unreasonably penalised for that choice. Which is why I applauded the decision to bring it in. For all but the smallest companies card is cheaper to run than cash yet they screwed people by charging for it.