Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

[Bletchleyite]

To answer the OP, maybe. I found some of the measures in hospitals (e.g. not having ill people sitting right on top of each other in the waiting room) actually quite nice. But to be honest, that's where it ends. For example, having to stand 2 metres away from the reception desk and having to explain why you are here in a raised voice, literally in the middle of the waiting room. You can forget any privacy.

Despite what some GP surgery receptionists seem to think (far too many of them think it's their life's vocation to prevent as many people seeing a doctor as possible), you do NOT have to discuss your medical condition with them, simply that you have one and need to see a doctor. You are quite within your rights to simply say that you wish to discuss that in private with the doctor.

At hospitals even less so, you already have an appointment, they already know why and you're giving it away a bit by virtue of which department you're in anyway (and everyone else there has something similar[1] anyway) - all they'll want is name and date of birth.

[1] OK, not always (most notably MK Hospital do random blood tests in the oncology (cancer) department because it generally has a bit of spare capacity at certain times of the day, which can be a bit alarming when you first open the letter), but mostly.

 

[Scrotnig]

Sadly most appear to be made of plastic, the very thing we are being told to cut down on, and eventually there will be a mountain of discarded waste to get rid of.

Ah, that's all changed. It's now one of the multitude of things we don't care about any more. Like cancer, heart attacks, strokes, diet, mental health, disabled people, etc etc. None of the above matters any more as they are not "the deadly killer virus".

 

[yorkie]

It's all about risk assessments these days; organisations are worried that if they do not impose over the top measures, people may claim they didn't do enough.

However many of these measures will actually cause more problems; in the case of GP surgeries it's going to be at the expense of treating other illnesses.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's all about risk assessments these days; organisations are worried that if they do not impose over the top measures, people may claim they didn't do enough.

However many of these measures will actually cause more problems; in the case of GP surgeries it's going to be at the expense of treating other illnesses.

At least some surgeries are open, our local one has closed for the foreseeable leaving a lot of people including lots of elderly needing to travel several miles when called in by the GP (and for those who don't drive its 2 bus trips each way).

 

[Scrotnig]

At least some surgeries are open, our local one has closed for the foreseeable leaving a lot of people including lots of elderly needing to travel several miles when called in by the GP (and for those who don't drive its 2 bus trips each way).

Mine closed within seconds of the crisis becoming apparent, and diverted all its calls to NHS 111. We are on our own. Completely.
I still seem to be paying taxes to fund a health service though. Presumably to pay my doctors, who to the best of my knowledge are doing absolutely nothing. For months.

If I had a non-emergency but potentially serious medical issue, I would just have to put up with it. If I discover a lump and it could be cancer, my only option is to hope I don't die. But all this is apparently ok, because it's not the deadly killer virus.

 

[Smidster]

Really uplifted my spirits to read the OP comments and so much agreement, about time people started to speak up. So ridiculous how over the top everywhere has become with signs, stickers, barriers, cones etc., the manufacturer's of such products must be rubbing their hands with glee at all the money they are making. Sadly most appear to be made of plastic, the very thing we are being told to cut down on, and eventually there will be a mountain of discarded waste to get rid of.

Problem is that if you dare to question any one of these requirements you are vilified as being a selfish idiot who wants to kill your own parents / grandparents.

I live in an area which has also been keeping people employed by painting lots of stupid arrows on the pavement and putting signs on pretty much every single lamppost - At least this is one industry that will make a killing when we drop to a 1m distance requirement.

I do worry about some of the long term impacts that we might see for kids subjected to these restrictions in schools - I remember seeing a picture, from somewhere in Europe, of "play time" which consisted of children sitting on the playground in boxes marked by chalk...That cannot be good for development

I am also getting increasingly frustrated by this now - Restrictions seem to be being introduced / amended on the back of whatever the latest Tory focus group suggests and in the mean time we are doing nothing more than existing. I don't claim to have a particularly exciting life, and have the advantage of a relatively secure job, but everything that might be classified as fun or merely different has been drained from it - Do we really want to live like this for months and months to come?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Coronavirus: How GPs are changing the way they work

Full PPE, 'red zones' and cleaning the room between patients are now part of everyday practice.

www.bbc.co.uk

News report of the measures taken by a GP surgery in Liverpool.
Full PPE the whole time? Surely the GP could sit well away from the patient and only don PPE if a close physical examination is needed?
Cleaning down the visiting room between every patient? What about hand sanitizer on the way in and out, and only cleaning if a patient has had symptoms, coughed or sneezed?
I can't help wondering if the measures described are way over the top.

My son went back to school this week. They wahs their hands in the playground before entering, and at certain times in the day, such as before lunch. The school is the same, except they have individual desks and don't share pencils etc. Displays still on the wall, all pretty normal. They clean during the day as well as in the evening and finish slightly early in Wednesday for a deep clean.
My wife works part time at a different school. She came back almost in tears this week. All the walls completely bare. All books removed, all soft furnishings removed. It's an old Victorian building so now resembles a prison and is being fumigated with some kind of fogging system every night.

I can't help but think some otherwise sensible folk have gone a bit bonkers. The GP in the linked article is on another planet. Covid19 isn't *that* contagious or that prevalent. Indeed, according to the WHO, 15 minutes of close contact is typically required, and the average GP appointment is shorter than that.

It's heartening that most on here agree with you but had you posted the same thing on Facebook or Twitter I guarantee you would receive a load of messages from lockdown enthusiasts calling you an idiot and telling you that you're risking lives just by going outdoors and passing within less than 2 metres of anyone else!

 

[43066]

Coronavirus: How GPs are changing the way they work

Full PPE, 'red zones' and cleaning the room between patients are now part of everyday practice.

www.bbc.co.uk

News report of the measures taken by a GP surgery in Liverpool.
Full PPE the whole time? Surely the GP could sit well away from the patient and only don PPE if a close physical examination is needed?
Cleaning down the visiting room between every patient? What about hand sanitizer on the way in and out, and only cleaning if a patient has had symptoms, coughed or sneezed?
I can't help wondering if the measures described are way over the top.

My son went back to school this week. They wahs their hands in the playground before entering, and at certain times in the day, such as before lunch. The school is the same, except they have individual desks and don't share pencils etc. Displays still on the wall, all pretty normal. They clean during the day as well as in the evening and finish slightly early in Wednesday for a deep clean.
My wife works part time at a different school. She came back almost in tears this week. All the walls completely bare. All books removed, all soft furnishings removed. It's an old Victorian building so now resembles a prison and is being fumigated with some kind of fogging system every night.

I can't help but think some otherwise sensible folk have gone a bit bonkers. The GP in the linked article is on another planet. Covid19 isn't *that* contagious or that prevalent. Indeed, according to the WHO, 15 minutes of close contact is typically required, and the average GP appointment is shorter than that.

Yes - the world has gone mad.

What’s saddened me the most about the last few months is just how happy people are to see their freedoms curtailed. All it takes is a little scaremongering by the government and much of the population is content to live in a police state, to be placed into a state of house arrest for weeks on end, and to see the economy driven off a cliff.

We’ve seen the same sort of thing before, most notably in relation to terrorism, but this is on a completely different scale. Fear - especially when it’s largely irrational - is a very powerful tool which can be used to justify virtually anything, and to shut down any dissent.

No doubt there’s also a significant minority who have quite liked sitting at home with the government paying their wages...

The tone does seem to be changing now, as people are (belatedly) waking up to the enormous damage that has been done to the economy, and the fact the current situation is completely unsustainable.

Despite what some GP surgery receptionists seem to think (far too many of them think it's their life's vocation to prevent as many people seeing a doctor as possible), you do NOT have to discuss your medical condition with them, simply that you have one and need to see a doctor. You are quite within your rights to simply say that you wish to discuss that in private with the doctor.

A GP friend of mine told me the reason receptionists ask about your condition is to “triage” the patients: you’ll be allocated a longer slot if you have a complex sounding issue to discuss with the GP. Exactly as you say, though, there is no requirement to declare you reason for seeing the GP to the receptionist.

Apparently the doctors also often find the receptionists incredibly obstructive and difficult to deal with. Their unique “charm” isn’t only reserved for the patients .

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Apparently the doctors also often find the receptionists incredibly obstructive and difficult to deal with. Their unique “charm” isn’t only reserved for the patients .

Well, they cannot all get jobs at Blackpool North, or on the Euston barriers.

 

[scotrail158713]

Yes - it has.

However I also know that is a lot easier for me to say as I am not vulnerable, and, so far, know nobody who has had or died from Covid19.

 

[Scrotnig]

No doubt there’s also a significant minority who have quite liked sitting at home with the government paying their wages...

I think this is a much more significant number.

In life I have come across many, many people who have always believed that the government has an unlimited money supply and could pay for absolutely anything and everything if they so chose. These same people are now finding themselves being paid NOT to do a job they probably don't like, and so they are quite happy with the situation. They would gladly sit idle like this forever, and they think the government could and should pay for it forever.

What you'll find is that as the furlough scheme ends, these people will face a harsh reality. They either get back to work or, worse still, don't have a job any more and the free money stops. Suddenly you will see them demanding things are opened up so can earn money again.

These are the types that flood Twitter and Facebook all the time with hysterical nonsense which sadly seems to drive government policy to some degree.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes - the world has gone mad.

What’s saddened me the most about the last few months is just how happy people are to see their freedoms curtailed. All it takes is a little scaremongering by the government and much of the population is content to live in a police state, to be placed into a state of house arrest for weeks on end, and to see the economy driven off a cliff.

There seem to be a small minority of office staff who seem perfectly content to work via Skype/Zoom calls for evermore. I'm not just talking about working from home a bit more.....but *never* seeing colleagues face to face or travelling to the office ever again.

I saw one on Twitter going as far as describing commuting as 'Dystopian'.

Not a future I subscribe to. The ability to travel is one of the greatest human freedoms in my eyes.

Apparently the doctors also often find the receptionists incredibly obstructive and difficult to deal with. Their unique “charm” isn’t only reserved for the patients .

I've had GP receptionists verbally scold me for doing things like turning up to register at the "wrong" time. Some actively treat patients as a nuisance.

 

[BJames]

Was part of the guidance we received. Think we want to spend our time deconstructing a display we’ve worked hard on putting up in the first place? We don’t want our classrooms to look dull and boring and sterile, but the clinical advice we received was to remove any and all soft furnishings that could be a source of fomite transmission.

Not blaming staff for this, it's obviously not your fault, you want the best for your students naturally. I think the guidance being given is excessive. Can't imagine kids wanting to go back and study in such a demotivating environment.

 

[BJames]

I think this is a much more significant number.

In life I have come across many, many people who have always believed that the government has an unlimited money supply and could pay for absolutely anything and everything if they so chose. These same people are now finding themselves being paid NOT to do a job they probably don't like, and so they are quite happy with the situation. They would gladly sit idle like this forever, and they think the government could and should pay for it forever.

What you'll find is that as the furlough scheme ends, these people will face a harsh reality. They either get back to work or, worse still, don't have a job any more and the free money stops. Suddenly you will see them demanding things are opened up so can earn money again.

These are the types that flood Twitter and Facebook all the time with hysterical nonsense which sadly seems to drive government policy to some degree.

I've come across a ridiculous amount of these people in recent weeks online. I saw that some company conducted a survey (I can't find it now but I remember reading about it) where a majority of people thought that the government should continue to increase public spending after the crisis. I'm not quite sure where people think this money is coming from, but the furlough scheme being extended has no doubt helped to convince people that the government have an endless supply of funds. I look forward to the reality check that people face when the furlough scheme is wound down.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm wondering if anyone commenting on this thread has any graduate, or postgraduate, qualification in the management and control of infectious diseases? Or perhaps it's speculation without knowledge?

 

[lyndhurst25]

There is an epidemic. We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do this.

That's the kind of mentality we are dealing with. Also, more importantly: we must be seen to be doing something.

I've had so many emails from companies explaining what they are doing to keep colleagues (I think they mean staff) and customers safe, that I have lost count. Like I'm bothered what's going on in a shop 200 miles away that I happened to order some pen refills from 5 years ago. And like I'm going to boycott any company that hasn't had their Chief Executive personally email me to reassure me about their Covid Action Plan.

Round here the public toilets are still closed for unknown reasons, denying you of one of the few places you can go to wash your hands while out and about. Apart from a small group of niche users, people naturally distance in public toilets. They'll also wash their hands on the way out. I'm not sure that Covid warrants any special cleaning over what is normally done anyway. But the toilets remain firmly closed.

Local GP practices are advising patients to speak to the doctor by telephone, rather than in person. That works for some things but you try trying to diagnose a skin rash or a sore knee over the phone. As a result some frustrated patients are going to A&E instead, which is still thankfully relatively quiet, but getting busier by the day.

In my local hospital when Covid first kicked off, Matrons were disciplining nurses who chose to wear face coverings because it was against hospital policy to do so. Some of these nurses had underlying health problems and were understandably worried for their health, and there was no shortage of paper masks at the time. Some of the nurses caught Covid. Come next Monday they will be disciplining the very same nurses for not wearing masks at work because the government policy has changed.

 

[Richard Scott]

I'm wondering if anyone commenting on this thread has any graduate, or postgraduate, qualification in the management and control of infectious diseases? Or perhaps it's speculation without knowledge?

No, but am an intelligent person who can think rationally, I have a mathematical brain so can see beyond so called statistics. I'm sure many others posting have same/similar abilities.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I'm wondering if anyone commenting on this thread has any graduate, or postgraduate, qualification in the management and control of infectious diseases? Or perhaps it's speculation without knowledge?

If they did have, do you think that they'd necessarily own up to the fact?

 

[Yew]

I'm wondering if anyone commenting on this thread has any graduate, or postgraduate, qualification in the management and control of infectious diseases? Or perhaps it's speculation without knowledge?

Appeals to ethos are irrelevant in logical debate.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Appeals to ethos are irrelevant in logical debate.

It was not an attempt to engage in debate, more a commentary on the quality of the debate. I'm shaking my head at the armchair experts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There seem to be a small minority of office staff who seem perfectly content to work via Skype/Zoom calls for evermore. I'm not just talking about working from home a bit more.....but *never* seeing colleagues face to face or travelling to the office ever again.

I mostly work like that but would probably choose 2 days in the office a week if I had a workable choice (I work with people from all over the place).

I saw one on Twitter going as far as describing commuting as 'Dystopian'.

It is. Have you ever seen the line-up at a typical Home Counties suburban station? The same people are standing in the same style of suit in the same position on the same platform to take the same seat (or standing space) as they have done for the last 30+ years - with the same sleep deprivation and the same rage when the same train is late as usual. The whole idea of it - being a wage slave in that manner - is just grim. And I only did it for a couple of years. Hopefully I will never need to do so ever again.

They spend something like 8% of their life - potentially about 5 years - making journeys they neither want nor need to make.

Not a future I subscribe to. The ability to travel is one of the greatest human freedoms in my eyes.

The ability to travel when you want is. Being forced to travel very much isn't.

I've had GP receptionists verbally scold me for doing things like turning up to register at the "wrong" time. Some actively treat patients as a nuisance.

Indeed, far too many people in the wrong job.

 

[Spamcan81]

It's hacked me right off. Was due both urology and haematology reviews last week but needless to say they never took place and no info as to when I will get to see the specialists. As far as haematology is concerned, that review could take place over the phone. Blood count discussed - I've had my regular blood test - and new medication prescribed but as it hasn't happened, I'm trying to get my next batch of medication authorised. Still awaiting a reply to the voice message I left. I'll be on this medication for the rest of my life and I'm at risk if I do not take it but that seems to have been forgotten because of Covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course that sort of review where there is no need to actually see you should ALWAYS be over the phone. The NHS does need a kick up the backside of modernity. Not using the telephone for that sort of thing is not even fit for the 1970s, never mind 2020.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I'm wondering if anyone commenting on this thread has any graduate, or postgraduate, qualification in the management and control of infectious diseases? Or perhaps it's speculation without knowledge?

I'm coming towards the end of an undergraduate degree in statistics, which included a number of modules on applications involving diseases. So I'm not completely unqualified, particularly when it comes to (for example) understanding just how much uncertainty there is in all our figures.

But I also know that you can't just look at this from the point of view of disease control. We need people who understand economics and business to minimise the harm to our economy. We need people who understand psychology to make sure our measures don't cause lasting harm to people. The goal in this crisis can't just be "minimise the disease", if that causes huge damage to everything which isn't the disease - that would mean more death and suffering in the long run.

 

[Spamcan81]

Of course that sort of review where there is no need to actually see you should ALWAYS be over the phone. The NHS does need a kick up the backside of modernity. Not using the telephone for that sort of thing is not even fit for the 1970s, never mind 2020.

Couldn't agree more. Even more stupid is that the haematology department won't authorise my local practice to add my meds to my repeat prescription list. This means I have to have them dispensed at the hospital. A phone consultation followed by a message to my GP regarding any change of dosage would save me time and money but the convenience of the patient seems to be a low priority.

 

[DelayRepay]

I am not an epidemiologist. I do however have professional qualifications in the quantification and management of risk. And a key consideration is that you should not mitigate one risk by creating an even greater risk elsewhere. And the mitigation should be proportionate to the probability and impact of the 'bad thing' happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn't agree more. Even more stupid is that the haematology department won't authorise my local practice to add my meds to my repeat prescription list. This means I have to have them dispensed at the hospital. A phone consultation followed by a message to my GP regarding any change of dosage would save me time and money but the convenience of the patient seems to be a low priority.

The worst thing is that these things that would improve patient convenience would also save the NHS money (e.g. in this case by downstaffing the hospital pharmacy[1]), but they still won't do it.

Similarly, a phone call to discuss results and arrange a prescription from them wouldn't really take an appointment slot in the same way, it could be squeezed in between other work or when someone inevitably doesn't show up. You only really need to see a doctor in person if they are going to need to take blood[2] or if they need to see something. Perhaps everyone should have a telephone consultation as the first line for everything? I can see a strong case.

[1] You probably couldn't abolish it entirely, as there's some stuff, e.g. strong opiates and methadone, that you don't want knocking around the community unless you want people raiding pharmacies at gunpoint/knifepoint.

[2] Depending on how much is needed, there are ways to do a home sample and to use home test kits which are widely available privately but guess what, the NHS won't use them.

 

[Spamcan81]

The worst thing is that these things that would improve patient convenience would also save the NHS money (e.g. in this case by downstaffing the hospital pharmacy[1]), but they still won't do it.

Similarly, a phone call to discuss results and arrange a prescription from them wouldn't really take an appointment slot in the same way, it could be squeezed in between other work or when someone inevitably doesn't show up. You only really need to see a doctor in person if they are going to need to take blood[2] or if they need to see something. Perhaps everyone should have a telephone consultation as the first line for everything? I can see a strong case.

[1] You probably couldn't abolish it entirely, as there's some stuff, e.g. strong opiates and methadone, that you don't want knocking around the community unless you want people raiding pharmacies at gunpoint/knifepoint.

[2] Depending on how much is needed, there are ways to do a home sample and to use home test kits which are widely available privately but guess what, the NHS won't use them.

My meds don't fall into that category. when my condition was first diagnosed, the consultant gave me a prescription to take to my local pharmacy but since then they have refused to do so. Strangely at my previous review, they guy in front of me had the same condition and was on the same medication but he went home with a prescription to be dispensed by his local pharmacy.

 

[Richard Scott]

It was not an attempt to engage in debate, more a commentary on the quality of the debate. I'm shaking my head at the armchair experts.

I've never claimed to be an expert and, to my knowledge, nor has anyone on here. However, it is a number of intelligent people having a reasoned discussion trying to weigh up the pros and cons of current situation using their own intellect. Don't have to be an expert to do some research and use your brain. We may be right, we may be wrong and sure we're all happy to listen to reasoned discussion. However, the feeling I get from this is most of us are fed up with hysteria based on media and government advice which seems to have little sensible reasoning to it now. I think I can probably say we understand the original reason for lockdown whether or not we agree with it but are struggling yo make sense of current situation as without a lockdown for years or a vaccine this virus isn't going to go away unless it burns itself out and the country will not be able to deal with such a long term lockdown.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Of course that sort of review where there is no need to actually see you should ALWAYS be over the phone. The NHS does need a kick up the backside of modernity. Not using the telephone for that sort of thing is not even fit for the 1970s, never mind 2020.

Certain parts of the NHS that essentially govern themselves are run as a job protection/creation scheme.