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Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

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Ianno87

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I've had so many emails from companies explaining what they are doing to keep colleagues (I think they mean staff) and customers safe, that I have lost count. Like I'm bothered what's going on in a shop 200 miles away that I happened to order some pen refills from 5 years ago. And like I'm going to boycott any company that hasn't had their Chief Executive personally email me to reassure me about their Covid Action Plan.

Some of the early ones were particularly laughable - could be summarised for restaurants as "yes, we definitely wash our hands and clean the kitchens".
 
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43066

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But I also know that you can't just look at this from the point of view of disease control. We need people who understand economics and business to minimise the harm to our economy. We need people who understand psychology to make sure our measures don't cause lasting harm to people. The goal in this crisis can't just be "minimise the disease", if that causes huge damage to everything which isn't the disease - that would mean more death and suffering in the long run.

Quite.

The epidemiologists and statistical modellers favouring lockdown all freely admit that they are focussed on reducing cases/deaths from this one disease only. No account is taken of “excess deaths” from other causes such as late diagnosed cancer, mental health issues, the impending economic crash etc.

A sensible, balanced, approach weighing up all relevant factors is what was needed here. What we have ended up with is an irrational fixation or reducing deaths from one cause, and one cause only, and to hell with the consequences.
 
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Ianno87

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It is. Have you ever seen the line-up at a typical Home Counties suburban station? The same people are standing in the same style of suit in the same position on the same platform to take the same seat (or standing space) as they have done for the last 30+ years - with the same sleep deprivation and the same rage when the same train is late as usual. The whole idea of it - being a wage slave in that manner - is just grim. And I only did it for a couple of years. Hopefully I will never need to do so ever again.

Some people make fun out of it, use the time productively (e.g. reading, relaxation, home learning).

There's a group I see regularly commuting between the Fen line and Liverpool St - every day was a social event (e.g. get the M&S beers in on the Friday trip home)

Commuting whilst staring at your phone every day is less fun.
 

BJames

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The BBC and the Guardian amongst others are reporting that Beijing is today reimposing lockdown following a local outbreak of COVID-19 from the city's largest wholesale food market. China is months ahead of the UK in terms of Covid transmission and still requires these steps. I don't see how this type of in-out of lockdown is really going to work in the UK in practice, with it being highly unlikely to be enforced properly and causing yet more damage to an already decimated economy.
 

DelayRepay

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I think local short term lockdowns in response to outbreaks in particular areas, will do less harm to the economy that continuing as we are. But as you say BJames, it will be difficult to enforce in practice.
 

LAX54

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If we go lockdown every 2 weeks in different areas, it will never ease off, the longer you do 'distancing' again it will never ease off, we just need to get back to normal, and hopefully get immunity, but like, coughs, colds, flu, it will never go away completely, and will those that die of other illnesses because they have been put on the back burner, outnumber those that died through the virus ?
 

Huntergreed

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If we go lockdown every 2 weeks in different areas, it will never ease off, the longer you do 'distancing' again it will never ease off, we just need to get back to normal, and hopefully get immunity, but like, coughs, colds, flu, it will never go away completely, and will those that die of other illnesses because they have been put on the back burner, outnumber those that died through the virus ?
Indeed. Those with Covid are getting all the attention of the health service when in fact this is not necessary. You could almost argue if you have a condition you would be better off catching COVID so you can get a hospital.

“All lives are equal, but some lives are more equal than others”
 

Bikeman78

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It's heartening that most on here agree with you but had you posted the same thing on Facebook or Twitter I guarantee you would receive a load of messages from lockdown enthusiasts calling you an idiot and telling you that you're risking lives just by going outdoors and passing within less than 2 metres of anyone else!
I've started winding up those people on Facebook. It passes the time. So many people claim to be scared on behalf of their children but cannot grasp that road accidents are a bigger risk to them.

I've just been out to M&S to buy some dinner for tonight. Busier than I've ever seen it and only one facemask. The car park was clogged up as usual and there was quite a queue for the McDonalds drive through. Seems that plenty of people are happy to take the risk.
 

Bletchleyite

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Some of the early ones were particularly laughable - could be summarised for restaurants as "yes, we definitely wash our hands and clean the kitchens".

Premier Inn is funny. It's basically summed up as "we are going to start cleaning the rooms properly as we should have done in the first place". Someone tell Travelodge, they are usually filthy.
 

Scrotnig

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Premier Inn is funny. It's basically summed up as "we are going to start cleaning the rooms properly as we should have done in the first place". Someone tell Travelodge, they are usually filthy.
I've always used these two chains, but after this you won't catch me anywhere near a hotel again.

I'm currently working out what I might be able to do for a holiday in the future. It's currently looking like I won't be able to have one other than day trips from home in the car. What a mess.
 

CaptainHaddock

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I've always used these two chains, but after this you won't catch me anywhere near a hotel again.

I'm currently working out what I might be able to do for a holiday in the future. It's currently looking like I won't be able to have one other than day trips from home in the car. What a mess.

Any hotel or just those two chains? If it's the former could I ask why?
 

CaptainHaddock

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Here's my contribution to the "world's gone mad with coronavirus precautions" topic. May I present the gents toilets at Wakefield Westgate station?

IMG_20200613_162359308.jpg

Now I can kind of understand why, if you're exceptionally paranoid you might lock one of the cubicles out of use but why on earth is there any need to block off the urinals????
 

JonathanH

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There seem to be a small minority of office staff who seem perfectly content to work via Skype/Zoom calls for evermore. I'm not just talking about working from home a bit more.....but *never* seeing colleagues face to face or travelling to the office ever again.

I've just been involved in a piece of office work involving twenty people that has taken four months, clearly the last twelve weeks from home, that has really embraced the power of the collaborative tools for working remotely - plenty of time on the phone individually and in groups, in video calls, sharing screens etc. We were lucky to get the deadline extended by two weeks in recognition of the circumstances but otherwise we have delivered just as well as we would have done in the office, perhaps better.

The important thing about this form of working is that we have all worked from home. If some had been in the office and others at home it would not have worked as well.

I am quite content for us all to never return to the office if there are going to be continued restrictions and no return to the old way of working. Who would go there and be physically in the same place but restricted to talking to colleagues over the phone, not able to meet in meeting rooms or at each others desks?

If anything, I think that the sentiment of many of my colleagues is that they would love to meet up in a park at the weekend but really aren't actually that fussed about returning to the office. (Obviously it is more difficult for some people than others.)

In terms of the actual point of this thread, what I am saying is that if there are significant restrictions on what we can do in an office, it really defeats the purpose of going there at all. The precautions just negate the purpose.
 

adc82140

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Certain parts of the NHS that essentially govern themselves are run as a job protection/creation scheme.

Careful with statements like that. The same lockdown enthusiasts will have you strung up for criticising the NHS. I work for the NHS on the front line- and believe me it ain't perfect. It really bugs me when people treat it like a religion. It's a publicly (under) funded health body, but is also hopelessly bloated and inefficient. I am no "hero". I get paid a satisfactory salary for my work, and I aim to do the best for my patients within my scope of practice. That's the career choice I made, and if I don't like it I'm free to leave.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Any. Just don’t feel comfortable with the idea any more.

Each to their own and all that but that seems like a massive overreaction. I do hope it's not a view shared by many otherwise it's curtains for the UK tourism sector.
 

Ianno87

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I've just been involved in a piece of office work involving twenty people that has taken four months, clearly the last twelve weeks from home, that has really embraced the power of the collaborative tools for working remotely - plenty of time on the phone individually and in groups, in video calls, sharing screens etc. We were lucky to get the deadline extended by two weeks in recognition of the circumstances but otherwise we have delivered just as well as we would have done in the office, perhaps better.

The important thing about this form of working is that we have all worked from home. If some had been in the office and others at home it would not have worked as well.

I am quite content for us all to never return to the office if there are going to be continued restrictions and no return to the old way of working. Who would go there and be physically in the same place but restricted to talking to colleagues over the phone, not able to meet in meeting rooms or at each others desks?

If anything, I think that the sentiment of many of my colleagues is that they would love to meet up in a park at the weekend but really aren't actually that fussed about returning to the office. (Obviously it is more difficult for some people than others.)

In terms of the actual point of this thread, what I am saying is that if there are significant restrictions on what we can do in an office, it really defeats the purpose of going there at all. The precautions just negate the purpose.

I agree that office working whilst social distancing is necessary is fairly pointless. Only exceptions would be in a minority of cases where people don't have a proper workstation setup at home, or have excessive distractions, etc.

The first opportunity to have a work pub social, on the other hand, can't come soon enough!
 

sheff1

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Now I can kind of understand why, if you're exceptionally paranoid you might lock one of the cubicles out of use but why on earth is there any need to block off the urinals????

They need to ensure that everyone who uses the facility touches the same handles on the same door. Can't be having any of this 'no contact' nonense - that is just for paying in shops.:!:
 

MotCO

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Couldn't agree more. Even more stupid is that the haematology department won't authorise my local practice to add my meds to my repeat prescription list. This means I have to have them dispensed at the hospital. A phone consultation followed by a message to my GP regarding any change of dosage would save me time and money but the convenience of the patient seems to be a low priority.

I have recently retired from the NHS in a backroom role and we were trying to encourage more GP telephone consultations - it is more convenient for patients (you can still go to work instead of waiting at home for your appointment), and probably makes more efficient use of staff time (any 'Did Not Attends' just mean the GP can phone the next patient quicker). If there is one benefit out of this ghastly disease, I hope it is that more patients will now accept telephone consultations - people tend to expect the same old systems and are resistent to change, but this could be the catalyst to change expectations.

I also believe that some patients should be treated as 'intelligent' patients. In this I mean that some people know about ther condition, know when to intervene, know what medication or treatment works or doesn't work for them, and should be allowed to have quick access to secondary or tertiary care (i.e. hospital consultants or specialist nurses in local or specialist hospitals) without having to go via their GP. The problem is who decides who is an 'intelligent' and 'non-intelligent' patient.
 

Enthusiast

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Any. Just don’t feel comfortable with the idea any more.
Then your answer to the OP's question would be "No", which is a shame.

In the area I live there are around 350k inhabitants. In the last two weeks there have been just eight new reported infections - 1 in about 44,000. I know that is not representative of the UK as a whole. In that same period there have been around 21,000 reported new infections - around 1 in 3,000. But 1 case in every 3,000 people is still an incredibly small number. I accept that the number of infections reported does not mean they are the only infections that have occurred. But to say that you will never darken the doors of a hotel again seems to be a massive over-reaction.

As I said in another post some days ago, I remember the Hong Kong 'flu epidemic in 1968. It killed around 30,000 people in the UK and somewhere between 1m and 3m people worldwide. But because of the lower UK population at that time the death rate was in the same order as Covid. Nobody was locked down, nothing was closed, life went on and, unfortunately, some people succumbed to the illness. People today expect that the government must and will protect them from everything. It cannot (as has been demonstrated by the casualty figures despite some of the most draconian measures ever seen in peacetime), but in trying to portray that illusion it has taken many measures which will cause irreparable damage to the nation. The cure really has become worse than the disease and many people in the UK (and probably elsewhere) simply cannot see that. I'm sorry to say that irrational fears such as yours will simply exacerbate that problem.

I have no wish to spend the rest of my life in this ridiculous situation - I've got too much to do. Some of the measures proposed by some shops which will be opening on Monday are simply absurd. Given the opportunity I would be out tonight for a beer followed by a meal (and a haircut on Monday morning). I've abided by all the lockdown rules (and much of the guidance where practical) because generally I don't pick and choose which legislation I will comply with. But my patience is being sorely tested. People who wish to remain under the hammer can do so (so long as the taxpayer does not continue to pay their wages) but those who don't should be allowed to resume normal activities forthwith. There was an article in the paper a day or so ago which suggested that the young had been forced to forfeit their education and their future in order to save middle-aged and older people. Well I didn't ask them to and in fact I don't believe they should. The abandonment of education for six months (at least) is a national disgrace. If you want an answer to the OP's question just consider that, together with the picture provided by Captain Haddock in post #72.
 

MotCO

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I feel I must disagree with the OP to a certain extent.

1. We were dealing with an unknown disease.
2. I believe that the NHS would not have been able to cope with a mass pandemic at the time - they were wrong-footed with insufficient ventilators and PPE, so the only way to cope was to lockdown to slow down the spread of the disease until such time as the NHS could get back on its right feet.
3. The disease does affect different people in different ways - the elderly, BME population, and those with underlying health conditions seem to be worst affected.

For these reasons, the lockdown was appropriate. It is selfish to allow the 'less at risk' groups carte blanche and risk exposing the 'at risk' group to the disease. For a graphic description of how one person fared with Covid-19, he/she had to have a double lung transplant since their lungs were sticking to other parts of their body and their lungs were full of holes. It is not fair to expose the 'at risk' population to this sort of outcome.

For many, simple steps can be taken - it is all about washing your hands, don't touch your face (transmitting germs via mouth, nose or eyes), keeping your distance and being vigillant. We do need to get back to a state of normality for our mental and physical state, as well as the economy; however, the new 'normal' will be different from the old normal. There will still be queueing at shops and supermarkets, High Streets will suffer with only 'personal services' being offered, i.e. restaurants, hairdressers, banks, etc.

The extreme measures described in previous posts (GP surgeries closed, school walls bare, the station toilets taken out of use) are over the top. However, we need to trust that everyone takes the simple steps stated above to stop this disease taking a hold again.
 

Mogster

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Careful with statements like that. The same lockdown enthusiasts will have you strung up for criticising the NHS. I work for the NHS on the front line- and believe me it ain't perfect. It really bugs me when people treat it like a religion. It's a publicly (under) funded health body, but is also hopelessly bloated and inefficient. I am no "hero". I get paid a satisfactory salary for my work, and I aim to do the best for my patients within my scope of practice. That's the career choice I made, and if I don't like it I'm free to leave.

As an NHS key worker I agree 100%.

Unfortunately the sacred cow status of the NHS is now preventing any real change, it bizarrely seems to be viewed by many as some sort of national healthcare charity... Suggesting a review of the benefits of alternative funding models for instance would be political suicide.
 

Scrotnig

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Then your answer to the OP's question would be "No", which is a shame.
Actually my answer would be "Yes". The problem is in my own headspace, I recognise that.
As I said in another post some days ago, I remember the Hong Kong 'flu epidemic in 1968. It killed around 30,000 people in the UK and somewhere between 1m and 3m people worldwide. But because of the lower UK population at that time the death rate was in the same order as Covid. Nobody was locked down, nothing was closed, life went on and, unfortunately, some people succumbed to the illness. People today expect that the government must and will protect them from everything. It cannot (as has been demonstrated by the casualty figures despite some of the most draconian measures ever seen in peacetime), but in trying to portray that illusion it has taken many measures which will cause irreparable damage to the nation. The cure really has become worse than the disease and many people in the UK (and probably elsewhere) simply cannot see that. I'm sorry to say that irrational fears such as yours will simply exacerbate that problem.

I have no wish to spend the rest of my life in this ridiculous situation - I've got too much to do. Some of the measures proposed by some shops which will be opening on Monday are simply absurd. Given the opportunity I would be out tonight for a beer followed by a meal (and a haircut on Monday morning). I've abided by all the lockdown rules (and much of the guidance where practical) because generally I don't pick and choose which legislation I will comply with. But my patience is being sorely tested. People who wish to remain under the hammer can do so (so long as the taxpayer does not continue to pay their wages) but those who don't should be allowed to resume normal activities forthwith. There was an article in the paper a day or so ago which suggested that the young had been forced to forfeit their education and their future in order to save middle-aged and older people. Well I didn't ask them to and in fact I don't believe they should. The abandonment of education for six months (at least) is a national disgrace. If you want an answer to the OP's question just consider that, together with the picture provided by Captain Haddock in post #72.
I agree with all this, and I am in favour of things opening up, albeit carefully.

My problem is in fact that I already lacked confidence in going to pubs, hotels etc, and I was already quite 'germ-phobic' to start with. I gradually got over it by convincing myself I was very unlikely to catch anything. Now that's all been shattered and it's such a long road back (took me twenty years previously) that I'm not sure I have the stomach to start all over again and would rather just not bother again. However I am not suggesting other people should not bother on my account. Quite the contrary, those who want to should very much go for it! I am an 'anti-lockdowner', very much so.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm currently working out what I might be able to do for a holiday in the future. It's currently looking like I won't be able to have one other than day trips from home in the car. What a mess.

If you want full control of your environment, a touring caravan or camper van is probably the way. Or a tent, if comfort isn't as important - by far the cheapest form of holiday going!
 

Cowley

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Actually my answer would be "Yes". The problem is in my own headspace, I recognise that.

I agree with all this, and I am in favour of things opening up, albeit carefully.

My problem is in fact that I already lacked confidence in going to pubs, hotels etc, and I was already quite 'germ-phobic' to start with. I gradually got over it by convincing myself I was very unlikely to catch anything. Now that's all been shattered and it's such a long road back (took me twenty years previously) that I'm not sure I have the stomach to start all over again and would rather just not bother again. However I am not suggesting other people should not bother on my account. Quite the contrary, those who want to should very much go for it! I am an 'anti-lockdowner', very much so.
I feel for you @Scrotnig.
I read a couple of your posts earlier where you said that (amongst others) Cornwall/the south west had been very rude about people coming to the area.
We don’t all feel that way down here however, and most of us that have any sense fully know that a lot of our income (not mine actually but plenty of people I know) comes from tourism.
I hope you do come down this way on holiday at some point and if you do then send me a pm and we’ll meet up for a pint somewhere welcoming.
 

Scrotnig

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If you want full control of your environment, a touring caravan or camper van is probably the way. Or a tent, if comfort isn't as important - by far the cheapest form of holiday going!
Yes, I am looking into renting a camper van at some point, as that could be ideal for next year. Camping I think I'm probably a bit beyond being able to do, plus you need more in the way of shared facilties.
 

Bletchleyite

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Now I can kind of understand why, if you're exceptionally paranoid you might lock one of the cubicles out of use but why on earth is there any need to block off the urinals????

Block off one of them, perhaps, as they are closer to each other than even 1m? Motorway services seem to be blocking every other urinal, which actually has no effect as that is the rule anyway :D
 

Scrotnig

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I feel for you @Scrotnig.
I read a couple of your posts earlier where you said that (amongst others) Cornwall/the south west had been very rude about people coming to the area.
We don’t all feel that way down here however, and most of us that have any sense fully know that a lot of our income (not mine actually but plenty of people I know) comes from tourism.
I hope you do come down this way on holiday at some point and if you do then send me a pm and we’ll meet up for a pint somewhere welcoming.
Very kind of you, thanks. Yes in reality I hope at some point to be able to visit next year and I may well take you up on that.

I apologise for my posts earlier as, of course, it is completely wrong of me to generalise like that, especially when I'm really only parroting media nonsense.
 

lyndhurst25

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Here's my contribution to the "world's gone mad with coronavirus precautions" topic. May I present the gents toilets at Wakefield Westgate station?

View attachment 79483

Now I can kind of understand why, if you're exceptionally paranoid you might lock one of the cubicles out of use but why on earth is there any need to block off the urinals????

From an infection control point of view, I'd have just closed off one of the urinals. The cubicles are isolated from one another and are completely safe. Urinals 2m apart are safer than cubicles as they are completely no touch. Good job they've put plastic bags on the urinals: I imagine that otherwise people would try and use them from behind the orange barrier! Maybe they just think that because there are fewer passengers then they need fewer toilets and can do less cleaning by closing most of them off?
 

Cowley

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Very kind of you, thanks. Yes in reality I hope at some point to be able to visit next year and I may well take you up on that.

I apologise for my posts earlier as, of course, it is completely wrong of me to generalise like that, especially when I'm really only parroting media nonsense.
To be honest I can completely understand why people feel that way. Some of the statements that came out back then made many of us put our head in our hands...
The tourist trade is hard won and easily lost and a bit of humility from those that were putting out statements back then wouldn’t have gone amiss really.
 
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