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Coronavirus.

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The Ham

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There are currently some 1 million people finding themselves unemployed, and many more millions unsure as to when they might get paid again. There are even some who have been told in no uncertain terms that they are not likely to get any help for months. Believe me when I say this, these people will not sit quietly by.

I don't doubt that there's a lot of angry people and a lot more who are suffering. However any civil disobedience is currently likely to be fairly small scale and limited in scale.

Not least due to the fact that even within a city/part if a city of 200,000 you'd probably only find relevant few of those would be willing to go onto the streets. Even then there's likely to be fairly few of those who would be up for doing something illegal.

In many past riots these started with non violent reasons which then were picked up and joined by those with other purposes. That's less likely to happen this time around, as there's a significant number of people who wouldn't want to put themselves, or others in their household or that they support, at greater risk of getting the virus.
 
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Peter Sarf

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There was a feature in this evening's news where the police were

Not quite true. I was there in Febuary 1998 when the annual NE monsoon was running and the daytime temperature was less than 10 degrees. That is not atypical and even the daytime temperature from mid December to mid March rarely gets out of the teens.

I recall April 1996 being in Hong Kong. Damp, foggy and cool/cold. I thought - might as have stayed in the UK !.

I think that misses an important point which is that a peak in the rate of admissions to hospital followed by a peak in the death rate shows that the policy of social isolation is working. That is important because it will help to ensure continued compliance. Then the idea seems to be to test our way out of it. That hasn't been explained very well, but as I understand it involves going back to contact tracing and suppression, with "lockdown" maintained where necessary on a local basis. I am not sure how effective that would be - one of the good things about the current policy is that it applies across the whole country so that it is seen as fair and is easier to police.

Yes. It will be tricky if some people feel unfairly treated. Also checking peoples id and health certificate will be labour intensive.

Sigh all you like, I live in the real world and know that we cannot live in a indefinite period of lock-down. This ins't a game, literally millions of people are sitting at home wondering when they will get paid again, and how they will pay their bills and feed themselves. And if those people suddenly find they can't... Well you figure it out.

Fingers crossed the number of infected people with no bad symptoms followed by immunity is high enough to allow us to ease restrictions sooner rather than later.

Exactly this, lock-downs are only effective when people are willing to comply. The moment that people loss patience, or more importantly start to suffer, things will change rapidly.

There are currently some 1 million people finding themselves unemployed, and many more millions unsure as to when they might get paid again. There are even some who have been told in no uncertain terms that they are not likely to get any help for months. Believe me when I say this, these people will not sit quietly by.

Fraid so. Patience versus no real understanding of the need to stay in - recipe for disaster. As soon as the death rate falls plenty of people will switch of all caution. Any heavy handed enforcement will fan the flames.

Empty stomach, boredom and long hot evenings - Versus - morals and common sense.

I ought to say. I am quite happy with this social distancing. But I have only just stopped working so the novelty has not worn off yet. My biggest gripe is having to use annual leave and that, at work, I was one of two people who had maximum contact with all of the site. My colleague had to use a bus to get to/from work and when we go back I will be giving him lifts both ways as that might have been our biggest hazard.
 
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Bantamzen

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I don't doubt that there's a lot of angry people and a lot more who are suffering. However any civil disobedience is currently likely to be fairly small scale and limited in scale.

Not least due to the fact that even within a city/part if a city of 200,000 you'd probably only find relevant few of those would be willing to go onto the streets. Even then there's likely to be fairly few of those who would be up for doing something illegal.

In many past riots these started with non violent reasons which then were picked up and joined by those with other purposes. That's less likely to happen this time around, as there's a significant number of people who wouldn't want to put themselves, or others in their household or that they support, at greater risk of getting the virus.

In Italy civil unrest is already starting to happen, just 4 weeks into their lock-down. Fear of the virus is being replaced by anger. This could happen here too.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I ought to say. I am quite happy with this social distancing. But I have only just stopped working so the novelty has not worn off yet. My biggest gripe is having to use annual leave and that, at work, I was one of two people who had maximum contact with all of the site. My colleague had to use a bus to get to/from work and when we go back I will be giving him lifts both ways as that might have been our biggest hazard.

Will they not furlough you on the Government scheme? They should do.
 

Peter Sarf

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I don't doubt that there's a lot of angry people and a lot more who are suffering. However any civil disobedience is currently likely to be fairly small scale and limited in scale.

Not least due to the fact that even within a city/part if a city of 200,000 you'd probably only find relevant few of those would be willing to go onto the streets. Even then there's likely to be fairly few of those who would be up for doing something illegal.

In many past riots these started with non violent reasons which then were picked up and joined by those with other purposes. That's less likely to happen this time around, as there's a significant number of people who wouldn't want to put themselves, or others in their household or that they support, at greater risk of getting the virus.

I think it is a very very real risk - certainty in fact.

We need to find things for idle hands to do. We also need to avoid panic over money. Remember there are a lot of people who have little/no spare money and these peo[ple have zero hours contracts so little chance of compensation. Unemployment benefit takes an age to start paying.

In Italy civil unrest is already starting to happen, just 4 weeks into their lock-down. Fear of the virus is being replaced by anger. This could happen here too.

Will they not furlough you on the Government scheme? They should do.

Has to be 3 or more weeks off apparently. We are closed for 04/04/20 - 13/04/20 inclusive. So four working days and two bank holidays. I don't know why it is so short and yet still necessary. I can see it being extended and more leave being eaten up rather than biting the bullet straight off.
 

yorksrob

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Kier Starmer made the interesting point that we should start planning for a mass vaccination programme. I would hope that that would include production facilities, so that we're not last in the queue of a supply chain.
 

Meerkat

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In Italy civil unrest is already starting to happen, just 4 weeks into their lock-down. Fear of the virus is being replaced by anger. This could happen here too.
Have you got any links for this - I have not seen anything about it??

a factor in violence not happening will be the demographic- the lowest echelons who have previously hit the streets are unemployed already, they are not suffering a loss of income as their benefits are constant.
 

Bantamzen

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Have you got any links for this - I have not seen anything about it??

a factor in violence not happening will be the demographic- the lowest echelons who have previously hit the streets are unemployed already, they are not suffering a loss of income as their benefits are constant.

This is one such story:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/04/europe/southern-italy-coronavirus-black-economy-intl/index.html

Four weeks into a nationwide lockdown, very few Italians are still singing from their balconies or banging pots and pans in solidarity. Instead, flags were lowered to half-staff this week for the nearly 15,000 coronavirus victims including doctors, nurses and health care professionals who have perished since February 23.

The lockdown, which was originally scheduled to end Friday, April 3, has now been extended to beyond Easter, and Italians from north to south are nearing a breaking point just as the draconian measures have begun to show signs of stopping the spread of Covid-19.
Italy's wealthy northern provinces have taken the brunt of the coronavirus outbreak with more than 75% of overall cases and deaths north of Tuscany, in the center of the country, per the Italian Civil Protection agency.
More than 10,000 health care workers in the northern provinces have been infected with the virus, according to the Italian Doctor's Federation, as a lack of proper protective gear made contagion inside healthcare facilities a contributor to the rampant spread. Some of the best health structures in all of Europe are in northern Italy, but they were pushed to near collapse with the sheer number of Covid-19 patients in need of urgent care.
Had the initial infection cluster started in the poorer southern regions, which do not have the same strong infrastructure, no one disputes that the crisis would have been even worse.
But the southern regions are struggling, too. The so-called "mezzogiorno" is where organized crime syndicate hubs are based and where unemployment hovers around 20% for adults and up to 50% for those under 24 during the best of times, according to figures from the Italian National Institute of Statistics (ISTAT). Even with the outbreak in some southern communities affecting "only" a few thousand, the facilities are stretched and care for non-Covid patients has been severely compromised.

With a huge part of the southern population working in the so-called "black economy" off the books, a whole segment of people lost jobs for which they cannot legally claim unemployment benefits. Those who do have legitimate employment have been given a path to ask for the suspension of some bills, but black economy workers -- of whom there are an estimated 3.7 million, according to ISTAT -- have no such outlet for relief.
In addition to the undocumented workers, soup kitchen volunteers in Rome, Palermo, Naples and Bari tell CNN they are seeing petty criminals, from car thieves to cat burglars, joining sex workers queuing for food, unable to afford a daily meal. This segment of society, for which there is no public accounting, are the most desperate and the most likely to reach breaking point first.

A few days after the Puglia hijacking, police were called after 20 people filled their carts at a Lidl supermarket in Palermo on the island of Sicily, and refused to pay. Col. Michele Monti responded to the call and told CNN that while he viewed it as an "isolated incident" the message was clear. "If this situation continues without the help of the government, we won't be able to feed our children," he said. "It was a message that they wanted to be understood."
The incident ended peacefully. "It wasn't violent, and the 20 people filled their carts said they didn't want to pay so we intervened and they calmly left without the food," Monti told CNN. "We here in Palermo also activated ourselves after this. We knew that many people, for their own dignity, wouldn't have asked for help but would need it. We know that a lot of this need was being hidden, so it was our initiative to support everyone." They have prepared care packages, left food at door steps and made sure high-risk people have medicine they need so they don't have to leave their homes.
Palermo Mayor Leoluca Orlando told CNN that he has petitioned the government in Rome for a "survival income" to give to citizens left behind without the desperate help they need. The municipality now lists places where people who need basic supplies and food can go for help and several companies prepare care packages in lieu of giving cash handouts to ensure people are buying food.
Orlando is concerned that his city government will not have the means to compete with a far greater source of help for the needy. He and others warn that organized crime groups are waiting in the wings to exploit the situation by offering help in exchange for new recruits as foot soldiers when the crisis is over. He points a number of private Facebook groups including one called National Revolution, now calling for mass protests in the streets and sharing details about easy-to-break-into shops. "The mafia is fanning the flames and will soon ignite this fire," he told CNN, after he wrote about his fears on his blog. "We need to quell it before it leads to violence."
Almost every grocery store in Italy now has a cart at the front where people who can still afford groceries are encouraged to donate items for those who cannot. In apartment blocks across the country, there are continuous reports of care packages deposited in front of the doors of people who have lost their jobs by neighbors and police officers.
One law enforcement official in Palermo donated his entire monthly salary, around $2,100, to buy groceries for everyone at a grocery store he was in last week, Palermo police confirmed to CNN.
But for all the kindhearted compassion this virus has inspired, there are at least as many troubling signs that as the pandemic subsides, the worst could be yet to come. Police in the southern province of Puglia say that a food delivery truck was hijacked on the main highway near the port town of Bari last week, Bari police confirmed to CNN.
The driver was unharmed, but when the truck was found, every single item was gone. Many grocery stores now have security guards out front when new merchandise is unloaded to stop people from running up to grab basic supplies like boxes of pasta and cans of tomatoes.

On a recent post by the National Revolution group, anonymous vigilantes call for everyone to gather in the streets of Palermo to protest that rents, mortgages and other utility bills have not been suspended for those who work in the black economy and who cannot prove they've lost their jobs.
Anti-mafia prosecutor Federico De Raho told CNN that social unease is the breeding ground for social unrest. "The Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and Mafia are all there to offer services to those who are suffering, giving them what they need in order to demand to be paid back later with interest," he said. "We have seen this in other emergency situations, these criminal groups are there to exploit the situation. This will be no different."
De Raho also says these groups are promoting violence against authorities and encouraging disgruntled and vulnerable people, especially petty criminals, to organize themselves to stage break-ins and wreak other havoc. He says that when the country eventually comes out of the lockdown, the criminal groups will be there to loan money and fill the vacuum left by the over-extended state. "If the state does not intervene with the right economic support at the right time, the businesses will have no option but take help where they can get it. The mafias are there ready to invest their money."
Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte has promised around $440 million in food vouchers to those in need, and a further $4.5 billion in aid to regional mayors to help vulnerable people in their communities. But the consortium of Italian mayors has complained that the $4.5 billion had already been earmarked to be delivered in May before the pandemic swept Italy, and that it cannot now be retargeted as part of the crisis support.
As the pressure from the pandemic calms in the north, there are still concerns that it could explode in the south if disgruntled people start defying the lockdown in greater numbers, which would add even more misery to an already miserable situation for everyone.
 

RichT54

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Kier Starmer made the interesting point that we should start planning for a mass vaccination programme. I would hope that that would include production facilities, so that we're not last in the queue of a supply chain.

What facilities does the UK have for producing vaccines? Do we make most of them in the country, or are they imported? Last November I was told that I qualified for a free pneumonia vaccination, so I made an appointment. However, the day before the appointment I received a call to say that they had run out of vaccine and that they wouldn't have any more until the end of January at the earliest. However, when I contacted them at the start of February I was told there were still problems with the supply of the vaccine and that I should check back each week to see if any had come in. Of course, since then, the outbreak of coronavirus means that things like ordinary pneumonia vaccinations are not being done, but it does make me wonder how efficient the production of a coronavirus vaccine will be in this country.
 

yorksrob

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What facilities does the UK have for producing vaccines? Do we make most of them in the country, or are they imported? Last November I was told that I qualified for a free pneumonia vaccination, so I made an appointment. However, the day before the appointment I received a call to say that they had run out of vaccine and that they wouldn't have any more until the end of January at the earliest. However, when I contacted them at the start of February I was told there were still problems with the supply of the vaccine and that I should check back each week to see if any had come in. Of course, since then, the outbreak of coronavirus means that things like ordinary pneumonia vaccinations are not being done, but it does make me wonder how efficient the production of a coronavirus vaccine will be in this country.

I don't know exactly, but there seems to be an international bun fight each year to secure the correct type of flu jab. Now would would be a good time to ensure that we're not beholden to such a situation for a COVID19 vaccine, should one emerge. The capacity might be particularly useful if it turns out that regular vaccination is required.
 

Mogster

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Kier Starmer made the interesting point that we should start planning for a mass vaccination programme. I would hope that that would include production facilities, so that we're not last in the queue of a supply chain.

The thing is I’d imagine you can’t make a production facility until we know what to produce. As I understand it there are many ways of producing vaccines, from animal cell culture to modified yeast or bacteria in bioteactors to growing them in genetically modified plants. It is worth looking at preparations though, even if it amounts to scoping out suitable packaging.

Any large space can be turned into a vaccination centre in an hour.
 

yorksrob

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The thing is I’d imagine you can’t make a production facility until we know what to produce. As I understand it there are many ways of producing vaccines, from animal cell culture to modified yeast or bacteria in bioteactors to growing them in genetically modified plants. It is worth looking at preparations though, even if it amounts to scoping out suitable packaging.

Any large space can be turned into a vaccination centre in an hour.

Now that is something I wasn't aware of. I'd assumed that it was some sort of petri-dish process scaled up.

That said, we should be aiming to get in place what we can, with a view to home production when possible.
 

RichT54

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that said, we should be aiming to get in place what we can, with a view to home production when possible.

Especially when countries like the US and Turkey have started impounding medical equipment that had been paid for by other countries.
 

yorksrob

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Especially when countries like the US and Turkey have started impounding medical equipment that had been paid for by other countries.

Indeed. In situations like this, the benefit of having a sophisticated home manufacturing base becomes stark.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't know exactly, but there seems to be an international bun fight each year to secure the correct type of flu jab. Now would would be a good time to ensure that we're not beholden to such a situation for a COVID19 vaccine, should one emerge. The capacity might be particularly useful if it turns out that regular vaccination is required.

In a way I think it's time to be a bit more protectionist - international travel and trade is going to be difficult for a very long time, so time to counter all that unemployment by whacking money into building ourselves back a domestic manufacturing, production and food industry so we can be more self-sufficient. There are a great many benefits of that.

We are in many ways quite a similar country to Germany and the Netherlands even if we might not wish to admit it. We should consider pushing our industry towards looking more like theirs, too. We will need to replace all those travel jobs - you don't need quite so many to organise family holidays by car to Skeggy! :)
 

yorksrob

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In a way I think it's time to be a bit more protectionist - international travel and trade is going to be difficult for a very long time, so time to counter all that unemployment by whacking money into building ourselves back a domestic manufacturing, production and food industry so we can be more self-sufficient. There are a great many benefits of that.

We are in many ways quite a similar country to Germany and the Netherlands even if we might not wish to admit it. We should consider pushing our industry towards looking more like theirs, too. We will need to replace all those travel jobs - you don't need quite so many to organise family holidays by car to Skeggy! :)

That's all in addition to the environmental benefits of not carting everything half way across the planet.

I find a lot to admire in countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, so I would have no qualms whatsoever about adopting their approach to industry.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's all in addition to the environmental benefits of not carting everything half way across the planet.

Precisely that. And lots of promotion of the same - why for instance is it seen as good to eat Argentinian beef rather than British beef? The latter is much more environmentally sound and creates jobs in Britain. Let the Argentinians eat theirs, and we'll eat ours, and stop wasting energy carting it back and forth all the time.

(I was going to say beer too, but most mainstream "foreign" beer is actually brewed in the UK under licence anyway :) )
 

yorksrob

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Precisely that. And lots of promotion of the same - why for instance is it seen as good to eat Argentinian beef rather than British beef? The latter is much more environmentally sound and creates jobs in Britain. Let the Argentinians eat theirs, and we'll eat ours, and stop wasting energy carting it back and forth all the time.

(I was going to say beer too, but most mainstream "foreign" beer is actually brewed in the UK under licence anyway :) )

In terms of beer, the native stuff tastes better anyway !
 

Mogster

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Now that is something I wasn't aware of. I'd assumed that it was some sort of petri-dish process scaled up.

That said, we should be aiming to get in place what we can, with a view to home production when possible.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X17307703

As companies, countries, and governments consider investments in vaccine production for routine immunization and outbreak response, understanding the complexity and cost drivers associated with vaccine production will help to inform business decisions. Leading multinational corporations have good understanding of the complex manufacturing processes, high technological and R&D barriers to entry, and the costs associated with vaccine production. However, decision makers in developing countries, donors and investors may not be aware of the factors that continue to limit the number of new manufacturers and have caused attrition and consolidation among existing manufacturers. This paper describes the processes and cost drivers in acquiring and maintaining licensure of childhood vaccines. In addition, when export is the goal, we describe the requirements to supply those vaccines at affordable prices to low-resource markets, including the process of World Health Organization (WHO) prequalification and supporting policy recommendation. By providing a generalized and consolidated view of these requirements we seek to build awareness in the global community of the benefits and costs associated with vaccine manufacturing and the challenges associated with maintaining consistent supply. We show that while vaccine manufacture may prima facie seem an economic growth opportunity, the complexity and high fixed costs of vaccine manufacturing limit potential profit. Further, for most lower and middle income countries a large majority of the equipment, personnel and consumables will need to be imported for years, further limiting benefits to the local economy.
 

Meerkat

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This crisis shows that medical supplies need to be treated in the same way that military technology is - as a strategic national security asset that needs preserving.
The slightly cynical way would be to subsidise PPE, drugs, vaccine, etc manufacture capacity from the DFID budget by donating the production as foreign aid.
But we clearly need massive buffer stocks.
Also need to build more facilities at large hospitals - a separate area for testing staff and better ways of splitting arrivals into segregated infected wards
 

Mogster

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Fortunately, this country does have some experience of the pharmaceutical industry, so I would suggest that we are exactly the sort of country that should be building this capacity.

Yes definitely.

The article provides a lot of detail as to what’s actually required though and the commercial problems associated with vaccines.
 

The Ham

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That doesn’t sound like general unrest and does sound rather specific to the messed up Italian south.
It’s a concern, but I don’t think we will get there.

That was very much my reading of the article, a country with a lot of organised crime results in organised crime taking advantage of the crisis.
 

Peter Sarf

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That doesn’t sound like general unrest and does sound rather specific to the messed up Italian south.
It’s a concern, but I don’t think we will get there.

We had plenty of unrest in August 2011. Those riots were sparked by the police shooting of a drug dealer on the other side of London. Shops in Croydon got burned down plus plenty of looting of other shops.

Please never never underestimate the possibility of it happening again.

I am sure the shop won't mind me linking to it.
 

Meerkat

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We had plenty of unrest in August 3011. Those riots were sparked by the police shooting of a drug dealer on the other side of London. Shops in Croydon got burned down plus plenty of looting of other shops.

Please never never underestimate the possibility of it happening again.

I am sure the shop won't mind me linking to it.

Difference being that those folk have a stake in this issue.
 

Mogster

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Even China isn’t immune to civil unrest it seems. Demonstrates how things could go South quickly.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...-as-people-try-to-leave-coronavirus-stricken/

Violent clashes erupted on a bridge between China’s virus-stricken Hubei province and neighbouring Jiangxi province, days after authorities relaxed an epidemic lockdown.

Police vehicles were overturned and police scuffled with each other amid large crowds of shouting people, according to a series of videos posted to Chinese social media. The confrontation came after authorities in Jiangxi blocked entry to people from Hubei, local media reported.
 

R G NOW.

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Anyone likely to know when the lockdown will end? I ask because I was in a queue outside my local supermarket yesterday and the lady standing two metres behind me suddenly asked If I knew when this will all end. I said I did not know. Then she said she's in a flat and her two kids are starting to play up, by slamming doors and general boredom, she is also getting complaints from neighbours due to the door slamming. Any ideas would be welcome please?. I had always thought about the 13th April, But not sure.
 

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Anyone likely to know when the lockdown will end?

No. Not even Bojo.

There is no "exit strategy" yet, if it's just removed it will just kick off again.

13th is the review date, the outcome from which could be loosening, tightening or keeping the same. My suspicion is a slight tightening, personally.
 
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